Sheriff Dupnik Speaks on the Jose Guerena SWAT Raid
BY Herschel Smith
13 years, 5 months ago
Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik spoke on the record concerning the SWAT raid that killed former Marine Jose Guerena (courtesy of reader Rich Buckley). There are several questions and answers that deserve our focus.
Dupnik: I don’t know. My feeling is that the reason he came not to the door, but entered the hallway with an assault rifle pointed, the only reason none of us were shot, is because he forgot the safety was on. And by the time he realized, he was shot. But my feeling is the reason he came with that gun is that he thought we were there to arrest him for murder.
Waddell: Is there any explanation as to the mixup, because Storie has come out and said, look, we thought he wasn’t going to be home, or, we didn’t know the wife and kids were going to be home.
Dupnik: I don’t have an explanation, but that’s not the facts that I have. We had reason to believe that he probably was going to be there. We also had reason to believe that the kids may not, and the mother, because they were supposed to be at school. That was their normal pattern. But we did not conduct the surveillance that day because we would have been identified. We can’t do that. First of all, when we are serving a search warrant on a property, it’s typical for when the people find out that you’re outside the house, the start destroying evidence that they can, burning documents, and things of this nature. That’s one of the reasons that we don’t do that. We had no reason at all to believe that this was anything other than any of the multitude of other search warrants that we’ve served where we never had a problem. We had no reason to believe that this guy was going to do that. But because he is part of a very violent organization, we considered it high risk.
Waddell: There have been a lot of people who have started to call for changes in SWAT protocol in general – the way that things are surveilled, the way that the operation is conducted itself. We’ve even had one of your former colleagues, the Graham County Sheriff, come out and say, look, I’ve worked with Sheriff Dupnik and I think it’s time to make some changes. One, what do you say to those critics who are calling for changes in SWAT protocol? And two, do you think that maybe it is time to review some of the policies?
Dupnik: We’re always reviewing our policies. And that’s one of the purposes of our shooting board, which is going to be meeting next week. But as far as the other criticisms, let me tell you that Pima County has a nationally-recognized SWAT team. As a matter of fact, one of our commanders goes all over the country instructing other organizations on SWAT techniques and protocol. We have one that’s known internationally, Dr. Richard Carmona, who goes all over the world talking about SWAT. In my judgment, we have a premiere SWAT organization, and at this point I don’t see any need to — This was an unfortunate situation that was provoked by the person himself.
Waddell: We have had some viewers who have come out and said, look, how do I know that the SWAT team isn’t going to bust into my house and shoot me dead in my house for what they would say is no reason. What would you say to the community to address some of those concerns of perhaps mishandling?
Dupnik: I don’t think anything was mishandled. Unfortunately, this individual points an assault rifle at cops. You do that, you are going to get killed. And the community has no reason to be concerned about it. We have a national reputation. We have been doing this for many years. And our organization as I said is nationally recognized as one of the most proficient. It’s not an issue. We average about 50 of these searches of where we have to have a search warrant from judge. And law abiding people don’t have to worry about confrontation with the cops.
This is just rich. First, Sheriff Dupnik accuses Jose Guerena, a two-tour veteran of Iraq and honorably discharged Marine, of being incompetent. He forgot to take his weapon off of safety. It would be interesting to hear from from other Marines, active duty or former, but the notion that he forgot to take his weapon off of safety is so ridiculous that it makes the Sheriff’s case seem like just so much buffoonery. I don’t have a handy picture of the safety on my AR, but go find one for yourself or on the web and take note of just how likely it would be for the weapon to be on safe and not know it when you picked it up.
Next, it’s a bit disconcerting to hear that the Pima County SWAT team, or any member of it, instructs other SWAT teams on proper tactics and techniques. But a premier SWAT organization they certainly don’t have. Recall the video of the SWAT raid? The testimony thus far of the raid doesn’t match up with the video (courtesy of reader Dave Hardy).
Officer Hector Iglecias, told detectives he fired his handgun after he saw the muzzle flashes from Guerena’s rifle, documents state.
“I get this slight glimpse to the left, which is kind of like a living room area,” Iglecias said during the interview, which occurred right after the shooting.
“And I see, pretty much, a male subject come out,” he said.
Iglecias, of the Sahuarita Police Department, said he saw an object on the right side of Guerena’s body before he saw the muzzle flashes.
The officer said he then fired nine or 10 rounds from his handgun while holding it with one hand before the gun malfunctioned. He and other officers told authorities they saw splinters coming off the doorway during the shooting.
He fell while attempting to reload, he said, prompting the other officers to believe he was hit.
Iglecias described how officers pulled him in front of the entrance and took him behind an armored vehicle parked in front of the house.
Other officers described hearing shots fired in their direction.
Deputy Kenneth Walsh was the officer who gave the commands for Guerena to come out of the house.
Walsh told investigators he issued at least two sets of commands in English and Spanish before he and another officer were ordered to open the door.
The order to open the door came during his third set of commands, he said.
It took at least a minute to issue the commands before they knocked down the door, he said.
He also described a hectic scene filled with gunfire and splintering objects.
A full minute to issue the commands, or so they say. The video shows four to five seconds. All of the chaos that the testimony discusses came from the SWAT team. The sequence of events was roughly this.
- Guerena enters the room.
- The first officer incorrectly believes he sees Guerena fire.
- The first officer empties his magazine at him. Other officers now believe they are in a gunfight.
- First officer stumbles and falls. Other officers believe Guerena has shot their buddy.
- Other officers empty their magazines into him.
And remember. This is a nationally recognized SWAT team who travels the nation teaching others how to do it. And also remember, if you ever respond to a SWAT raid of your home after hearing a knock at the door four seconds before, not knowing who it is, or even if they are legitimate police officers, and armed men are entering your home, and you confront the intruders with a weapon, you’ll die. So says Sheriff Dupnik.
Oh. Did I mention that this team is nationally recognized and trains other SWAT teams to do this?
Prior:
New Details on the Jose Guerena Raid
Further Analysis of the Jose Guerena Raid
The Jose Guerena Raid: A Demonstration of Tactical Incompetence
On June 6, 2011 at 1:31 am, Delphi said:
I believe there are a bunch of clowns. From the movie it can be seen as they enter the house like some frightened chickens, and I assume they were really lucky that Mr. Guerena did not shoot, or else at least half of the team would have been dead and the other half would have been injured. Anyhow, as clumsy and incompetent as they appeared to be, I think the next time they will come with a Javelin or something similar and wipe out the entire house, only to be sure. A M1 Abrams would make the job done, too.
On June 6, 2011 at 1:36 am, Jim March said:
I have my own article up at: http://zerogov.com/?p=1880 – including pictures of the Guarena home’s front door post shooting, and a pic of the back of the house.
Those pictures strongly support this being handled more like a drive-by than modern policework.
And you’re absolutely right: if approaching the door of your own home gun in hand means you’ll be killed on sight, we no longer have a functional 2nd Amendment – in Arizona of all places.
On June 6, 2011 at 1:38 am, Jim March said:
Another thing. What the hell is going on with that car alarm they had rigged as a “siren”? Seriously? If the whole point is to let people know the police are coming, that ain’t the way to go about it.
On June 6, 2011 at 2:08 am, jj said:
If an 18yr old soldier did this in a war zone, he would be in Leavenworth. Sad state of affairs when a sheriff thinks shooting up a house with children in it, in the middle of a residential neighborhood, is necessary to serve a search warrant. So the “suspect” destroys some evidence? Is it really worth killing people? Their lives were not in danger. Sheepdogs they are not. They’re wannabes…..
On June 6, 2011 at 8:28 am, Dave said:
Sheriff Dupnik made news earlier this year with some WTF commentary:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47293.html
On June 6, 2011 at 10:38 am, Warbucks said:
” “In an interview with TIME, (localy known as Sheriff-Joe) Arpaio at first declines to second-guess a fellow sheriff, but then goes on to do just that. “I don’t know how you can make those comments. You can’t put the blame on everybody else for what this 22-year-old kid did. That’s going to be a good defense for him” …”
One of the most relevant statements made by Sheriff Dupnik is that the shooting board is going to review the shooting. If anyone now has access to the records of the information considered by that shooting board, real progress might be made if those records were now reported.
Missing from Dupnik’s public comments there is no discussion of the special needs of warriors returning home and the cool down time we sometimes need. Much of what has been pushed under the rug comprises an entire range of health concerns for our vets. Many theater- wide health issues, such as our handling, using, storing, firing, even breathing the air seems to correlate to Mental Health and anger management for Gulf vets.
If all Sheriff Dupnik’s shooting board comes up with is the usual “Yes we knew he was a Gulf-War vet and therefore well trained in the use of home defense weapons”, this dead young vet has been killed like a cow going to slaughter.
Much more needs to go in to the understanding of the entire range of tactics and how to apply them at the personal residence of a recently discharged vet. The benefit of mercy needs to go to the vet in this hard choices of law enforcement.
Otherwise Sheriff Joe’s assessment of Dupnik is the only rule to be applied.
On June 6, 2011 at 10:43 am, Warbucks said:
I meant:
Many theater- wide health issues surrounding “depleted Uranim weapons” such as our handling, using, storing, firing, even breathing the air seems to correlate to Mental Health and anger management for Gulf vets. Sorry about that.
On June 6, 2011 at 2:16 pm, Sean said:
I am NOT defending the cops here….and I think Guerena’s weapon was on safe b/c he realized the “intruders” were police at the last second….but since he was a vet, it seems he should have known better than to position himself in a fatal funnel when trying to defend his home.
Let this be a lesson to us all…..
1st, if you own guns and grab one to defend yourself in the event of a break in….be prepared to get into a gun battle REGARDLESS of who it is breaking in (and that includes police). You will be given no quarter obviously.
2nd, PRACTICE what you will do if your home is violated by the “kings men” or a common criminal and be prepared to put that plan into action.
3rd, make your peace with God if you believe in one…..b/c when SWAT comes calling, you’re likely not going to come out of it, regardless of any guilt on your part.
On June 7, 2011 at 7:42 am, Warbucks said:
Graham Moomaw’s article covers a broad range of statistics on swat teams, and is worth reading.
“SWAT team statistics spark questions about tactics
Wednesday, May 26, 2010
By Graham Moomaw
http://www.thesentinel.com/pgs/news/SWAT-team-tactics-Prince-George-s-County
Of particular note to me are the comments of Retired Chief McNamara who is rather unique as chiefs go. He’s written sassy R-rated novels based on his experiences, holds a doctorate degree in his field, and is a Fellow at our local Hoover Institute.
……”McNamara, who served as police chief of San Jose, Calif., for 15 years, was involved in the creation of one of the first SWAT-like police units in the country during his time with the NYPD in the early 1970s.
“He said the idea that massive firepower is needed to fight drug dealers is overblown because the weapons they might keep are usually for protection against other criminals who might be after their money or drugs, not for suicidal shootouts with police.
“McNamara said that SWAT-style raids are useful to police because the element of surprise allows them to gather evidence, which is usually hard to come by in drug cases.
“This leads to questionable conduct that is highly dangerous to innocent people but is often shrugged aside due to the police mindset that it is a war and ‘shit happens’ in a war,” McNamara said.”
The greater issue is that the Swat Teams in general are being used too often to do ordinary police work in every community. McNamara puts his finger on the heart of the problem. I’m inclined to take it one step further than Chief McNamara. The over use of Swat adds to negative impressions of life in your community. Because of the inevitable “shit happens” this is war mind sets, coupled with the standardized equipment, black uniforms, hidden faces, and fast kill training, excessive use of Swat is stripping away the idealized image of “Maybury USA” we’ve sought for our towns. It all reflects negatively upon ourselves and leads to neighborhood division, increased isolation, and cold community attitudes. And I don’t believe changing Swat uniforms to pink is the answer.
On June 8, 2011 at 1:44 pm, Warbucks said:
To what extent do the headlines of Mexico drug wars effect our cultural perspectives and further influence US Swat team tactics?
On an international scale, Mexico is classified as a “functioning democracy” in that they have a constitution and hold elections.
Mexico remains however, the romantic land of myth as to its legendary 36 families that purportedly keep its middle class weak and still relatively small in comparison to say the percentage size of the US middle class. I’m looking for a good book to read or articles to read on Mexico’s 36 families and the links to the power base it has reportedly kept in tact for all these decades after the revolution. While there is for me a certain romantic charm to the aristocratic heirs apparently flowing down from the Conquistadors, the Roman Catholic Church, and the simple campesino family oriented derivatives of its modern culture, Mexican citizens are asking for US help to relieve them of what is being reported in the news as “ill planned Mexican war on drugs.” A new peace movement by the campesino class and Mexican middle class is being built around the theme of “please rethink this Mexican war on drugs.” 40,000+ people have been slaughtered in Mexico as a result of the on-going war on drugs.
Mexican Federales are of course a National Force, something the US must resist forming and is blocked by Federal Law of Posse Comitatus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act from implementing.
South of the border the drug war is escalating as it moves toward our boarders. Drug cartel fighting for domination of markets, now using home-made armored vehicles that require an escalated response.
The home made armored vehicles are used to escort drug supply caravan shipments around Mexico. It’s like a scene out of Mad Max movies. 1-inch armored plated vehicles are the current drug lord vehicles of choice to guard shipments. And they do their job pretty well. Some of the vehicles and associated tactics are operating in Mexican Counties right on our border.
So what we perceive as a drug war on the US side of the border is seen far more fearfully by Mexicans directly across our boarder in Mexico.
All these media images and perceptions impact how an elected sheriff in the US along our boarders is apt to respond. I can’t prove that statement but I think it’s true. I would forecast things get worse on both sides of the boarder, not better. More SWAT responses, increased armor, heavier weapon response, on the US side. I would expect somehow, under the current joint US-Mexican Drug War strategy we would send a couple of Apache choppers outfitted for night operations and 30mm anti-tank cannon come election time to show we are doing something about the problem and are in tight with good foreign policy with Mexico.
Somewhere along the way, I want to respond to the John Steinbeck instinct that the people we should be listening to are the campesino class and the weak middle class of Mexico on the matter of their peace movement.
There are always unintended consequences no matter what we do here in the US in response. Smuggling can not be stopped as long as the profits are so great in the black markets. I find it unsavory that we as a society can maintain laws on our books that create the conditions that lead to the primary cause of the killings in Mexico. The recent peace movement will likely die not because of Mexican intransigence but because of US election politics and the need to “do something” about the drug lords. Our response is always so predictable to the war on drugs. I’d rather see my country legalize a whole list of drugs taking us back perhaps to the legal status of the same compounds during our War of Independence with England, than watch another 40,000 Mexican families murdered. In no small part, I feel culpable and ashamed for our arrogance.
And perhaps then we might see headlines and images along our boarder settle back to illegals running back and forth. A soften tone I think will decrease the over use of SWAT teams, takes us in a direction of Mayberry USA imagery again, and get more cops doing ordinary, everyday, community police work that seldom reaches the headlines.
When I was a kid in my town back in the late 40’s, on a rainy day walking to school, the cops would stop and pick kids up in their patrol cars and drop us off at school and chit-chat along the way, maybe even joke. These guys were all loved back then. Last month, my local police department closed off an entire neighborhood so that our SWAT could arrest someone. We never were told who or why, just given an all clear. Last week an apartment house blew up and the papers reported the police saying it wasn’t drug related. Hmmm.
I’ll tell you what, I’d rather let the drugs be sold and taxed legally than more of the same mind set we are living with now. Mayberry USA is a state of mind, and a state of mind requires images, and the images we get today is nearly all derived from the preservation and protection of drug empires.
Let’s start with working with the peace movement forming inside Mexico. There may be unintended consequences but I will keep my body clean myself and I will try and teach my children and my grandchildren to do the same fo themselves. The war on drugs doesn’t work at any level. Change it.