Goodbye To The Army And Marines: Political Correctness Has Taken Over
BY Herschel Smith
12 years, 2 months ago
As precursors to my analysis, take note of the following inconsistencies and contradictions. First, Dr. Steve Metz, Professor at the U.S. Army War College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, in response to Sharia is coming, left this comment: “Should we worry about the creeping influence of the Boy Scout laws? More people follow that in the United States than sharia.” Note well. Steve is comparing Boy Scout law with Sharia law. This Boy Scout law – compared to this sharia law.
On the other hand, because of political correctness, in the Spring of this year, US Army Lieutenant Colonel Matthew Dooley was condemned by the Joints Chiefs of Staff (JCS) and relieved of teaching duties at Joint Forces Staff College for teaching a course judged to be offensive to Islam. The course he taught, Perspectives on Islam and Islamic Radicalism, was an elective course that Lt. Col. Dooley’s superiors judged as presenting Islam in a negative way. His superiors were persuaded to come to this conclusion after receiving an October 2011 letter in which 57 Muslim organizations claimed to be offended by the course. The fact that Lt. Col. Dooley is a highly decorated combat veteran with nearly 20 years of service under his belt apparently held little or no sway with the JCS. As a matter of fact, JCS Chairman General Martin Dempsey “personally attacked” Lt. Col. Dooley on C-Span on May 10, 2012, during a Pentagon News Conference.
Next, take note of the fact that females are now matriculating at infantry officer training at Quantico. This is certainly in line with Andrew Exum’s counsel concerning his own branch of the service: “I see no compelling reason why women should not be allowed to attend Ranger School. As far as I am concerned, if a woman really wants to run around a sawdust pit at two in the morning screaming “Ranger!” while periodically stopping to low-crawl for 50 meters, we have a constitutional — nay God-given — responsibility to allow her to do so.”
But now consider what Former Spook observes concerning women in combat MOS.
Almost 20 years ago, columnist Fred Reed published results of an Army study, comparing fitness levels among male and female soldiers. The data reaffirms that most women simply lack the upper body strength and endurance required by an Army infantryman, a Marine rifleman, or most special forces MOS’s.
The average female Army recruit is 4.8 inches shorter, 31.7 pounds lighter, has 37.4 fewer pounds of muscle, and 5.7 more pounds of fat than the average male recruit. She has only 55 percent of the upper-body strength and 72 percent of the lower-body strength… An Army study of 124 men and 186 women done in 1988 found that women are more than twice as likely to suffer leg injuries and nearly five times as likely to suffer fractures as men.
The Commission heard an abundance of expert testimony about the physical differences between men and women that can be summarized as follows:
Women’s aerobic capacity is significantly lower, meaning they cannot carry as much as far as fast as men, and they are more susceptible to fatigue.
In terms of physical capability, the upper five percent of women are at the level of the male median. The average 20-to-30 year-old woman has the same aerobic capacity as a 50 year-old man.
Finally, take note of the undercurrents in the suicide prevention department of the DoD. We can trust our men with the most lethal weapons known to mankind, but the desire now is to give commanding officers authority over personally owned weapons. As one commenter has noted, the concept of “at risk” is subjective, which is the same reason that such medical assessments cannot ever be allowed to preclude the right to own firearms in the civilian community.
My son routinely hauled 120 pound(+) kit off the line as a fleet Marine, including his time in Fallujah, Iraq, between body armor (including SAPI plates), backpack, weapon, SAW drums plus ammunition, hydration system, and so on and so forth. Recall this picture from the assault into Helmand in the summer of 2009?
This Marine is carrying his kit plus a mortar plate. He is probably crossing the line at greater than 150 pounds.
My son trained as a fleet Marine before the age of political correctness. Strong, male Marines – not reserve Marines, but hard core regular duty infantry Marines – would need to take several shots of whiskey and 1000 mg of Ibuprofen to kill the pain prior to their twenty miles humps with full kit on 100 degree F (+) days at Camp Lejeune. Negligent discharges brought a season in the so-called “room of pain.” Laying back on the humps brought time in the room of pain. Failing to qualify well on the range brought time in the room of pain.
Fun time involved laying down to sleep in the swamp overnight at Camp Lejeune (as ordered) and having to strip naked the next morning so that your buddies could burn the leeches off with cigarettes. Or, how about that extended time at Fort A.P. Hill when the NCOs gradually removed everything the Marines had, from tent, to sleeping bag, to food, to winter clothing. Then, it was time to sleep one winter night on that outing, and there was no way to stay alive unless Marines huddled, hugged, laid down together, shivered and threw leaves over themselves for the night.
You get the picture. But my son left the U.S. Marine Corps because, in his own words, “the Corps is changing.” He couldn’t train his boot Marines the same way he was trained. He wasn’t allowed. He had initially intended to extend so that he could go to Afghanistan with his boot Marines because he felt responsible for them. But he believed that a lot of good men would perish in Afghanistan, and that he couldn’t make a difference in that. So he left, along with all of the other Marines who had experience from Iraq.
If you have some sort of androgynous, genderless vision for the armed forces – if you believe that Navy Corpsmen should be able to treat the field diseases of both men and women and understand what mud and parasites in the various different cracks and crevasses and holes of men and women do, if you believe that men and women are on equal footing pertaining to physical abilities, if you believe that machines like the ridiculous Army future combat systems robotics and the silly machines like the big dog can ever replace mules and the backs of infantry Marines, if you believe that men and women will be able to interact socially as a cohesive fighting unit without the behavior that attends the opposite sexes – I think you’re weird and creepy. Not that we can’t be friends, but just that you’re weird and creepy, at least to me. Machines cannot replace strong men, and even the Russians found out in Afghanistan that women had a higher number of lower extremity injuries than men, causing severe under-manning of forces. Exum believes that we have a constitutional and God-given duty to allow women in Ranger school. I’m a constitutional aficionado with seminary training, and I don’t think Exum can prove either of those assertions.
As for Steve Metz, he isn’t stupid, he has just let his political and religious bigotry cloud his scholarship, leading to the stupid things he said about Sharia law. But it’s okay to have Steve Metz saying those things as long as we don’t let contrary positions be taught. We wouldn’t want to offend anyone, would we?
As for the personal possession of guns by Soldiers and Marines, how about this proposition. We remove the ridiculous rules of engagement under which they operate and give them a coherent strategy, and see how our fighting men respond. If not well, then I would be willing to spend some extra dollars to help assess PTSD. But I’m betting I won’t have to spend a dime of that money.
As for the Army, I kind of expect this sort of thing. But the Marines were supposed to be different. They’re not, and political correctness proves it. It’s a sad thing to watch the diminishing of the U.S. Marine Corps, once the greatest fighting and strike force on earth, to political hackery. I hold the Commandant of the Marine Corps responsible, at least in part. I also hold responsible a public who allows this kind of thing without pulling the plug on the absurdity of the use of our armed forces for every social engineering experiment that appeals to the self-professed intellectual elites. And finally, it’s a shame that I have to mention the Commandant of the Marine Corps and the nations “intellectual elite” in the same breath. How very sad is all of this?
On October 9, 2012 at 1:04 am, DirtyMick said:
Herschel,
I’m going to illustrate a life in the grunts…
When I was active duty at Ft. Campbell it was a life of a lot of walking. We would insert or fast rope in with combat equipment which consisted of body armor, weapon (depending on mission a crew serve too), a Barret 50. cal, and kick out our rucksacks. Our rucksacks consisted of field stripped MREs, a poncho liner (sleeping bags were usually not taken because we needed spare room in our rucks), spare radio batteries, tough books, picks, shovels etc. The RTOs humped over 100 pounds and the rest of the Pathfinder team guys rucks weighed between around approx 80 pounds not counting body armor. Then we would proceed to hump approx 20 to 30 plus klicks all night to get on our objective to set up our hidesites (which consisted of digging in all night and concealing our positions). Then we set in position for 2-3 days and watch our objective and send up our reports. Then when we indexed we would hump another 20 to 30 klicks to get to our extraction point.
Airborne operations with combat equipment would consist of us jumping out of an airframe with our main which was 31 pounds, reserve, a rucksuck that weighed 80 pounds and our weapon (depending on duty position it would be a rifle, saw or 240b) case. We would then assemble and hump all night to set up an ambush.
PT in the infantry consisted of body armor runs, ruck runs, ruck marches, rope climbing, buddy carries, log PT, obstacle courses etc.
Now that I’m in a national guard Armor unit my duty position is that of a gunner on a Bradley Fighting Vehicle. One of our tasks is to disasemble and reasemble the main gun on the bradley which is the M242 25mm Bushmaster. In the turret (which is very small) you have to pull out the reciever which weighs 97 pounds (once you get it out of the turret it’s a two man lift) and the feader which weighs 58 pounds. Once you get those out of the bradley you have to climb on top and pull the barrel off which weighs 107 pounds (that’s a two man lift).
Now lets go look at deployment in a combat arms unit… I call it combat with a Big C and a Little C. Women have been to combat (there’s no denying that) but I call it Little C. Little C is going down an MSR and getting SAF and an IED. Which is combat and terrible when people are KIA or WIA but it’s nowhere like Big C. Big C consists of fighting door to door in fallujah for 5 days. Big C consists of 327 infantry doing a battalion assault into Marawara. Or doing a 20 hour patrol in the Korengal where you go back to your COP and do your laundry in ammo cans, shower with baby wipes, and you’ve lost so much body fat the place reeks of ammonia because your body is eating muscle (Sebastion Junger chronicled this in the book War). Big C is living in absolute austere conditions and patroling every day for 9-12 months.
Being in the grunts is a physically demanding job. Myself and my peers have bad knees, bad backs, shoulder problems etc. This occurs during a 4 year enlistment! Men who make it through their 20 and retire have the bodies of old men!
Also on a side note being in the grunts during off duty which consists of men in their late teens and early 20s who spend their days training to kill the enemy spend their time drinking, fighting, and carousing.
These fucking POGs and politicians think that woman can be integrated, serve with and be in the infantry and combat arms are absolutley insane. It will get men killed. Generals who don’t support this need to stand up and say something. They need to resign in protest. This is getting out of control! The fact this way of thinking is even being pushed after 11 years of combat operations is insane. If it gets men killed then the individuals that pushed this need to spend time in Leavenworth
On October 9, 2012 at 6:49 am, bob sykes said:
Corruption and decadence increase until a country suffers a crushing defeat. And then, that country disappears from history.
On October 9, 2012 at 9:51 am, TS Alfabet said:
Herschel, let’s hope that the American public has seen the shameless exploitation of our armed forces and the corruption of its mission and on November 6th will pull the plug on it. Or him, rather.
On October 9, 2012 at 9:57 am, Herschel Smith said:
It might take more than that, my friend. There is a whole generation of field grade and staff officers who have grown up in this corrupted environment. I’m not sure that they can return to yester-year because they have never seen it, and don’t know what it looks like.
On October 9, 2012 at 9:57 am, TS Alfabet said:
Agree Bob, but let’s hope that America is more like the Romans after Cannae in 216 B.C. and not, say, France, after Verdun in 1918. The Romans used that horrific defeat to rethink their military and strategy and went on to become the overwhelming military of the ancient world for the next 300 years at least. The French learned seemingly nothing and were still wedded to static defenses in 1940.
On October 9, 2012 at 5:40 pm, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: All
RE: It’s Gonna Take…..
…..a Cannae type disaster and it will probably include YouTube snuf-flicks of young American service women captured by the jihads.
It’s going to be ugly, in the extreme.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The feminist movement died, one millisecond after the first impact. — Niven and Pournelle, Lucifer’s Hammer]
On October 9, 2012 at 5:47 pm, DonM said:
It was that the French learned that attacking static defenses were costly that led to their use of static defenses. Their Chausseur units learned that with sufficient application of fire, infantry maneuver was possible, and taught that to the US doughboys. Part of that application of fire was the French 75mm howitzer, and another part was the 7.5mm Chauchat machine gun.
The French in 1940 had more tanks than the Germans. DeGaulle was a prime theorist of armored warfare, and his counter attack nearly routed Rommel. Still, his counter attack was not exploited, and his ideas were not widely appreciated.
One can learn, but one can learn also the wrong things.
On October 9, 2012 at 5:53 pm, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: DirtyMick, et al.
RE: Indeed
Generals who don’t support this need to stand up and say something. They need to resign in protest. — DirtyMick
The last act of bravery on the part of any flag-grade officer—short of dieing in combat leading his troops—is to resign and start tearing the government a new hole in its fourth-point-of-contact. In a very noisy fashion.
But these characters are all more political
cretins…ahem…..creatures than real leaders who care about the lives of their soldiers, sailors, wing-wipers or Marines. The vast majority of them made their stars by being politically correct megalomaniacs. Look at Wesley Clark. I knew him as an armor batt commander at Carson in the early 80s. He was a POS then and getting a flag didn’t improve him.Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Mission. The Men. And then Me, if there’s any time left over.]
P.S. For most of the flag-grades we’ve got now, they’ve got the order bass-ackward…..
On October 9, 2012 at 5:55 pm, Jean said:
Big Army just can’t wait for this war to be over so it can go back to its AER campaigns, spring cleaning, endless four day passes and NTC rotations. The war has been distraction for the careerists and ticket punchers. They have been hiding away, making silly rules and waiting for this to be over so they can get back to great social experiment called the US Army.
There is a complete breakdown between the man walking point and the Ivy League generals paraded in front of Congress.
Riddle me this Batman- how many Aviation Brigades deployed to Afghanistan- Never more than two. That’s not a Joe walking point decision, that’s a General officer call. So the West Point wine and cheese crowd can’t even get the force level right in a war; Prime example -N2K, but they can tinker with the foundation of the combat arms branches.
On October 9, 2012 at 5:57 pm, Jim Shute said:
Let’s not forget that years before Dooley, there was Steven Coughlin, whose contract with the Defense Dept. to instruct officers on the nature of Islam & sharia was canceled, presumably because his instruction did not subscribe to the Bush myth of Islam as the “religion of peace.” Vis-a-vis Islam, Bush & Obama are really one and the same.
On October 9, 2012 at 5:57 pm, SGT R said:
A perfect example of the differences in lower body strength can be found at Fort Jackson. A quick drive through that base will reveal an astounding number of females walking around with crutches. Why are they on crutches? One jump out of the back of a five-ton, without any equipment, is enough to fracture the female pelvis.
On October 9, 2012 at 5:59 pm, David said:
We’re going to get our a** kicked in the war for a couple years, until the few adults left take over.
To be sure, If Almighty God is done with the USA, we’ll simply get our a** kicked.
Finis.
On October 9, 2012 at 6:08 pm, Rich K said:
The American public is too busy playing with their I-Phones to care about the status of the Marines or any other damn thing. Go ahead and ask any 20 something who has not served what Duty,and Country means,and hear the words,WHAAAATS Thaaaat? I need a drink,later Gents.
On October 9, 2012 at 6:13 pm, John Stephens said:
Is “This Kind of War” by T. R. Fehrenbach no longer on the Officer’s Reading List? Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it, and if Task Force Smith is no longer remembered then we must suffer another one. Though I pity the soldiers and marines who must pay for the lesson.
On October 9, 2012 at 6:21 pm, Melissa Schneider said:
Gentlemen,
I proudly served in the USMC from 1987-1996 as a woman Marine Officer. I was stationed at 4th Bn RTR USMCRD Parris Island from 1989-92 training women recruits. Trust me, there are former military women who do NOT think this is a good thing. I told DACOWITS the same things in 1992.
Some how or another a friend of mine was contacted by Milos Balac, a producer from Huff Post Live, wanting participants to discuss “… gender neutrality in military training and we would love to feature the voices of some real female military members and veterans, specifically from the Marines because of the recent news that women can now go through officer infantry training in order to help determine gender neutral physical standards.” She convinced me to participate. Here is what he is going to hear: “Gender neutral physical standards……sounds like a euphemism for lowering standards which will ultimately weaken our infantry ranks. I thought I would have made a good artillery officer and still think that is a good combat arms MOS for women, but the infantry is a special case. Out of the 892 female recruits I graduated not one of them would have withstood the rigors of infantry tarining. Heck, they could hardly lob a grenade the requisite distance. There might be 1-3% of all women that could withstand the physical rigors. The only way they could qualify more women physically is to lower those physical standards. It kicked my ass humping a 45lb pack and having to carry a SAW or the ammo bandolier or any of the other crew-served weapons components on top of it, and I was in the top 10% of women physically in my class. Having to do that daily …..well, let’s just say the 6 months of TBS probably put 10 years on my body. This isn’t good for women or the infantry. Let us command tanks or artillery, but unless they have magically lightened the combat load which I believe can get as high as 150lbs, then this is going to turn out badly for everyone involved.” Hopefully, I can bring a voice of reason to the discussion.
On October 9, 2012 at 6:21 pm, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: John Stephens, et al.
RE: T.R. Fehrenbach’s Classic
God! I hope it’s still on the list.
Every general officer who came through Benning School for Boys to talk to the assembled IOBC and IOAC classes in 1980 said, ‘Read this book!”
I got it through Tattered Cover once I got to my assignment with 4ID(M) at Carson.
A GREAT READ. Especially the lessons out of Chapter 25, Proud Legions.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[….except in this world there are tigers. — T.R. Fehrenbach]
On October 9, 2012 at 6:27 pm, Ken Mitchell said:
“Almost 20 years ago, columnist Fred Reed published results of an Army study,”….
Fred Reed is still writing, and for those of you not privileged to read him, he’s online at http://www.fredoneverything.net. He is, if anything, even more profane and more blunt now than he was back then. You definitely won’t agree with everything he writes – but you definitely WILL agree with SOME of it.
HIGHLY recommended.
On October 9, 2012 at 6:56 pm, B K said:
I have believed for several years that the PC attacks on the armed forces were intended to destroy them, that they were all parts of the long march through the institutions that TWANLOCs began in the ‘60s and ‘70s. I am dismayed to read this post and comments because they seem to confirm my worst fears.
Thank you, Veterans, for having put yourselves on the front lines for the rest of us. Active service members, thank you and best of luck.
Here’s hoping the cancer can be removed.
On October 9, 2012 at 7:16 pm, Lorenzo Poe said:
You thought that the marines were different from the Army? Dude you bought the propaganda! Remember when the marines went to one standard for their pt test? Yep, the female standard.
I am sure that somewhere there is a female who could pass Ranger school, but allowing females to attend Sapper school is why you can graduate but not get tabbed.
So my son joined the Paratroopers cause me and my dad had. He got out after 4years and one 12 month OEF deployment because the Army he joined was not the one he grew up around.
I have had one 15 month OEF deployment and wouldn’t mind another but will probably do Africom. Things are easier at my rank, but you have to be the change you want.
On October 9, 2012 at 7:19 pm, Herschel Smith said:
No propaganda. The Marines he entered was different than the Army. We knew folks in both. Now … meh.
On October 9, 2012 at 7:21 pm, Rich Vail said:
As a young Marine, 28 years ago…I usually carried 120 pounds of weapons and gear WITHOUT body armour…since we didn’t have it then. I don’t know of many women woul could carry that amount of weapons/gear…but then, I’m not politically correct in the least fashion.
PC will lead to the utter destruction of our society…we’re well on the way to that desitination.
On October 9, 2012 at 7:45 pm, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: All
RE: Heh
Why am I suddenly reminded of Heinleins classic Starship Trooper and the political science aspect about the collapse of the modern democracies?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Science fiction writers foresee the inevitable, and although problems and catastrophes may be inevitable, solutions are not. — Isaac Asimov]
On October 9, 2012 at 7:47 pm, Joanne Loster said:
Your comments about Sharia and the boy scouts.. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. but when a course is cancelled because it doesn’t present Islam in a positive light it’s to get scared. Why do so few people see how much freedom of speech and freedom overall we have already lost in the name of “political correctness” — a word which directly says that only some opinions are valid.
Anybody who believes Islam is a peaceful religion hasn’t picked up a copy of the Koran and opened the book, eyes open. Religious violence is not perversion of Islam; it’s a directive.. a way of serving Alla by increasing the number of Muslims.
Quite apart from my point of view and more important is my right to have it. Ahmedinejab can walk into the UN call my people a “cancer” to be exterminated and not a peep, the US delegate does not leave the room. If, however, I or the teacher you mentioned dare to say something less than complementary about Islam, we better watch out. Now THAT IS SCARY.
I never had any experience like that when my son was in the boy scouts.
Personally, I have no experience with military. I have many and friends that do in Israel but do in everything else and women want it that way, While politics can be crazy in Israel, in the military, people are not assigned based on ideologies and don’t have much choice ( at least in the beginning). You are assigned based on your personal profile that includes, body strength upper, lower, many other physical measure, social skills, leadership abilities talents or hm….. challenged-areas?? etc… There’s also something called common sense
Politicians should stay far away from military, for their own good and the good of their country.
Thank you to you and all the commenters who protected this country
On October 9, 2012 at 8:28 pm, Synova said:
The politicians should be kept away from who gets assigned to what, absolutely. However, while I’d never argue that female soldiers are capable of or should be somehow made to fit into infantry or SF careers, they do need to be trained to be soldiers… or they aren’t going to be. Complaining that women are essentially the ladies auxiliary when they’ve been *trained* to be the ladies auxiliary is a failure of leadership. How would you train a man if, when he signed up, he was told that he’d never fight, ever? Would you be surprised if he didn’t quite measure up?
On October 9, 2012 at 8:55 pm, Herschel Smith said:
Synova, I think what you’re hearing from the folks who have done this is that it isn’t a matter of training when the physical capabilities are not present to begin with in order to effect that training.
I prefer to celebrate the sex differences, not erase them.
On October 9, 2012 at 10:14 pm, Joe said:
The LTC’s class on Islam was stopped perhaps in part because it was politically incorrect, but it was also incorrect in a lot of factual respects. If you want to make people smarter, you need to impart information, not just viewpoints, or facts that are true only in particular narrow senses.
As for women in combat, ranger school, etc – there’s only two ways to get there. Either you lower the physical standards, or you keep the standards high. and break women in training, in order to slip a few through and make your inner neoliberal egalitarian feel happy.
If you lower standards, men are going to die by the score because a weaker woman cannot pull them out of a collapsing, burning APC, cannot haul two boxes of ammo at a time, cannot dig a combat position in shale in a timely manner. You are straight up sacrificing young men on the altar of your deranged beliefs that equality matters as much downrange as projecting firepower and minimizing losses. If they keep the standards high… well, who am I kidding. They won’t. Combat Arms mainly involves picking up heavy stuff often at uncomfortable angles, moving it around (never fast enough), dragging stuff up and down hills, digging holes, knocking down doors and walls, running, and maybe fighting with your fists or turning wrenches. Most of the women I served with were simply weak compared to men (it’s teh testosterone, folks) and a very few of the women I served with were strong relative to their body weight, but a super fit woman is still only going to be about 110 pounds, and just not have the overall mass and strength of a comparably fit male. In the end, few women will get through the training, and if standards are kept high, instead of men dying in combat, we’ll be crippling women in training.
The idea of needlessly sacrificing our troops, male or female, to advance this idiocy, galls me. Our troops are precious, they are not lab rats to be used in experiments implementing 2nd Gen Feminism.
On October 9, 2012 at 10:21 pm, Cargosquid said:
http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal
Here’s a female Marine who gets it.
On October 9, 2012 at 10:26 pm, Herschel Smith said:
Joe, in order to justify your point on the class you need to provide examples and evidence. I confess that I remain suspect. I haven’t studied the course material, but I also know that, for example, Steve Coughlin is also panned by the idiots concerning what he wrote and taught, but Steve is correct in each and every way. I also know John Guandolo with:
http://www.strategicengagement.org/index.html
And he and Steve are the smartest people teaching on this subject today. But I would venture to say that Steve Metz would disagree with everything they say because of his viewpoints and the fact that he is the one who cannot separate his feelings from fact.
So when you say that the course was stopped because there was factually incorrect material, I just don’t believe you until I see it.
I agree with the rest of what you say in the comment. The discussion about whether standards would be lowered (and the fact that they could not be NOT lowered) also occurred over at Exum’s place. Oh goodness. Exum. He is another issue.
On October 9, 2012 at 11:46 pm, Sam Beltran said:
Is this support of Sharia Law and Islam “political correctness” or more likely and order from the President as Commander in Chief and the biggest criminal fraud ever perpetrated on this Constitutional Republic?
On October 10, 2012 at 3:16 am, Bernard 2LT said:
I was an artillery battery XO in the Belgian army in the late eighties. Every position in the army was open to women already then and we had two females in the bataljon. One was an administrative NCO doing paperwork (she had no role in the field) and the other was the Bn S2. The NCO was respected even though she played no operational role, because she would participate in the morning PT and run a respectable time in the Friday cross. The LT was miserable at anything requiring physical exertion and had zero feeling for the psychology of command, sounding like a nag all the time. Men would laugh openly when she issued commands. .
Even today, more than 20 years later, the percentage of females in the Belgian army is under 15%. This means women will always have to operate in a male-dominated environment. It is not enough to be physically fit. Women in a position of command especially need to know how to deal with men too. How many women can do that ? Some can, I am sure, but most can’t. The problem is : that particular ability is not selected for.
In the military, the women equality business is treated from the point of view of women wanting to join the service. What about the men who are already there ? Why are they forced to participate in a social experiment that – unlike similar experiments outisde the military – can have deadly consequences for them ?
On October 10, 2012 at 5:14 am, DirtyMick said:
In the Army my time working with women has been limited due to being in the Grunts and now serving as a part timer in the guard with Cav but I can tell you my experience with them has shown they are not up to par when it comes to playing the combat arms game.
When I went to Airborne School in 2005 fresh out of Infantry OSUT at Benning part of our PT Test to go Airborne was we had to do 6 pull ups (to show that we had the upper body strength to pull our risers). When we arrived at Airborne and took the PT Test we didn’t do pull ups but flexed arm hangs because women couldn’t do the 6 pull ups. A large portion of the females then failed out because they couldn’t hack the runs in the morning (even though we did it in ability groups) and double timing every where in uniform and boots.
Then I went to the Warrior Leader Course in 2007 (PLDC for you salt dogs) I had a class of 170 soldiers and only 3 of us were infantry plus our combat medic (we were all from the same company) and needless to say dealing with the POGs especially women was a disaster. The last week of the course we conducted our field problem which consisted of basic patrolling and battle drills. The females in the assigned squads could not pull there weight and in leadership positions they would generally break down and cry when the cadre would start throwing arty sims and yelling them. Mind you this isn’t Ranger School patrols but very very basic missions such as conduct a movement to contact for a klick or two. I remember specifically at the end of our field problem a good portion of the females fell out on a 2 mile walk back to where we were supposed to be picked up by buses because they couldn’t carry their rucks. Low and behold the males in our platoon carried all their gear.
In Afghanistan was even more interesting… On occasion we would take females with us to visit district centers so they could talk to other Afghan women. I always put them farthest away from the gunners on the MRAP in the event that if the gunner was hit somebody strong enough could pull the gunner out of the way and hop in the gun and start killing Taliban. For training we conducted gunner down drills and I included the females for the training. As previously stated they couldn’t pull the gunners out of the turret and when they did get in the turret they couldn’t charge the M2 or the MK-19.
Another time before we went out on a mounted patrol the MP unit that lived next to us was stepping out on a mission right before us. I remember watching their female platoon leader having a hard time getting the TC door open on the MRAP. She had to have her driver dismount and open the door for her she could get into the vehicle.
So my point stands women should not be allowed in combat arms due to the physical standards and also the fact that it is a mans world. I don’t want to have to worry about some female being offended if I’m bent over bare assed giving myself a bath out of a 7.62 can and telling stories about what I was doing Friday night on Ft. Campbell Blvd.
On more point before I go to bed… Ms. Schneider I appreciate the fact that you realized that there are difference between men and women but I also wanted to point out that being on tracks and in arty is also a physically demanding job. Trying be stuck out in the desert in an Abrahms or Bradley after throwing track and trying to unass that situation. Or doing a fire missions all day where you spend most of your time slinging 105 or 155 rounds. I also wanted to point out if there is no need for gun bunnies they usually get tasked out as grunts. See 320th FA out of Ft. Campbell when they were deployed in 05-06 to Iraq. I was very confused as a cherry doing a patrol in Tikrit when I saw the gun bunnies walking by us. I later found out the obvious which was “Ya man we’re not shooting 105s into downtown Tikrit so we’re walking every where now”
On October 10, 2012 at 6:57 am, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: DirtyMick, et al.
RE: Heh
In the Army my time working with women has been limited due to being in the Grunts and now serving as a part timer in the guard with Cav but I can tell you my experience with them has shown they are not up to par when it comes to playing the combat arms game. — DirtyMick
Same here. However, I will recount one incident. 1-508th IN (ABN) was up at Yakima. Some poor dumb soul got run over by a tank. From the hips down, he was wasted. But still alive.
A medivac showed up to get him out. It had a co-ed litter team. The girl took one look at the poor guy and totally lost it. The unit had to provide the other part of the litter team she couldn’t fulfill.
Another case in point. Not mentioned so far. The ‘distractions’ women create.
Fort Carson, winter training. Another soldier gets frostbitten. The unit calls up the FLA assigned to it by the medical batt. No response. The unit has to evac the man with their own assets.
The batt XO goes looking for the missing FLA. He finds in hidden in some dense shrubbery. The co-ed team has turned off the radios and is using the litters for unauthorized recreational activities, i.e., dereliction of duty.
Those are just two instances. There are thousands more. Not only in the down-and-dirty world of the infantry, but in the squeaky-clean waters of the squids. I believe three ships captains have been relieved for cause within the last 12 months because of male-female issues on their vessels.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[I’ve studied abnormal behavior for years and I still don’t understand women. — Dr. Sigmund Freud]
On October 10, 2012 at 7:01 am, Chuck Pelto said:
P.S. About personnel from other MOSs being re-designated infantry and thrown into the fray….
Iwo Jima, WWII, The Japanese are conducting a massive banzai assault on Marine positions. Chesty Puller is calling back to the rear for reinforcements. The rear tells him, “All we’ve got left are clerks and cooks.”
Chesty says, “Send them up. Any alive in the morning will be Marines.”
On October 10, 2012 at 7:37 am, Steve Metz said:
Apparently I failed to communicate my point so I’ll try again. I was not, of course, comparing the content of sharia and the Boy Scout law. That would be absurd and I’m not prone to absurdity. I was pointing out that in the United States that there are multiple things that are called “law” which selective groups of people subscribe to but which are not intended to apply to the population at large.
If some American Muslims elect to use sharia within their community and doing so it not at odds with US and state law, that is no different than any other group which applies their own law to themselves. It is not a threat to others who are not part of the group.
And I echo the idea that the class at JFSC was not cancelled because it was “politically correct” (a phrase normally used to deprecate ideas when no more serious critique comes to mind) but because it was incorrect. The course content was more propaganda than education.
On October 10, 2012 at 7:47 am, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: Steve Metz
RE: Is That You ‘Joe’?
The Cancelled Class was ‘Incorrect’?
I believe that our host asked you to provide evidence that supports your claim that the class was technically ‘incorrect’ about Islam.
I too would like to see your to that claim.
Please provide it.
Otherwise, all you are doing is what you accuse the course of doing, i.e., ‘propaganda’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out….one way or another…..]
On October 10, 2012 at 8:04 am, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: Ken Mitchell
RE: Fred Reed
Thanks for the link to that character’s web site.
Interesting stuff, that.
I particularly enjoyed the Women in Combat Part II: Letters.
The description of the ‘blood curddling’ battle cry of the demure, petite girl going through the bayonet course was hillarious. Something right out of Police Academy and Hooks.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[If you want to defend a place and keep it safe for democracy, you must do as the Roman legions did and put your young men into the mud. — T.R. Fehrenbach]
On October 10, 2012 at 8:13 am, Steve Metz said:
Chuck–for starters, the comment on a slide that “the United States is at war with Islam.” That is factually incorrect. But maybe that’s just my “emotion” (which is sort of a kettle/pot assertion).
On October 10, 2012 at 8:25 am, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: Steve Metz
RE: How to Be ‘At War’
Actually, Steve, if someone is at war with you, you are, de facto, at war with them.
Either that or you have totally surrendered.
Don’t you think?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The quickest way to end a war is to lose it.[
On October 10, 2012 at 8:30 am, Chuck Pelto said:
P.S. Got any more easy targets, like that last one?
On October 10, 2012 at 8:55 am, Herschel Smith said:
Steve Metz,
Your comment only makes it clearer that you simply do not understand Sharia law. The purpose of jihad is to implement Sharia forcibly. There is no other function for it, no other purpose. The intent of the Islamists isn’t to implement it voluntarily, but forcibly, even if gradually and not immediately.
Furthermore, it simply isn’t the case that we allow people to do whatever they want and live by whatever law they wish if that “law” happens to conflict with the U.S. constitution – as does Sharia law in all of its parts.
Finally, as far as the course being more “propaganda than education,” I’m still waiting for proof. Asserting so doesn’t make it so. If you have proof, trot it out. If not, then I have no reason to believe you. You give me course content that you think is propaganda and I can judge. It’s possibly the case that you might think it’s propaganda, and I would not.
EDIT: Oh, and you’re warned that you do not do your case any good if you trot out stuff that was similar to what Steve Coughlin taught, because Steve was correct. If that’s what you’re calling propaganda, then you have made my case for me.
On October 10, 2012 at 9:08 am, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: Herschel Smith
RE: Steve Metz
Not only does he not understand Sharia. He doesn’t understand Islam either.
My brother-in-law is an expat Iranian. Very intelligent—he designed biotech lab equipment sent up to Sky Lab. But not a practicing Muslim. He enjoys Stolies as much as I do.
What’s my point?
When my sister married him. I started looking into Islam.
What I’ve learned in the last 20+ years since is just an open grave for just about anything Steve Metz will trot out about that religion. And though I’m not too familiar with the course that was stopped, I have little doubt it was stopped for the sake of ‘political correctness’ as opposed to reality.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Political Correctness fails at the point where the image of ‘tread’ meets the reality of ‘pavement’.]
On October 10, 2012 at 9:52 am, Herschel Smith said:
It occurs to me that now might be a good time to remind readers of the following so that Sharia is properly understood:
Donald Sensing:
“This explains why Western Muslims push against the West’s institutions and democracies: Sharia alone provides the structure by which jihad can be accomplished and paradise earned. Whether this jihad is greater jihad (non-warring) or lesser jihad (violence against Islam’s enemies) is irrelevant to the salvation of Muslim believers; either one will suffice. Earning paradise through jihad is the fundamental soteriology of Islam and sharia is its only means.”
See his parts I, II and III, all linked here:
http://senseofevents.blogspot.com/2010/11/what-is-jihad-really.html
Also, “rehabilitating” the MB doesn’t work with me. I already know too much for that to work.
http://www.captainsjournal.com/2011/02/27/the-rehabilitation-of-the-muslim-brotherhood/
On October 10, 2012 at 11:53 am, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: Herschel Smith
RE: Addendum
It might not be as simple as the thought that Steve Metz, a.k.a., ‘Joe’, doesn’t ‘understand’ Sharia. It might be that he does understand it. And the ploy that he presents himself as not understanding it is just a cover for another nefarious bent.
Something to consider…..
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. I’ve encountered this sort in the past. Sort of a variation on the ‘false flag’ technique.
Seriously. First he represents himself as [average] Joe. And then, via mis-step, he is now Steven Metz?
Please pardon my professionally inculcated ‘paranoia’. It comes with the ‘turf’ after 27 years in the infantry, a graduate of CGSC and some considerable time spent developing scenarios to drive state-level exercises for State Area Commands (STARCs), i.e., the State Adjutants General and their staffs, in how to prepare for national emergencies—think Gulf Wars—and natural disasters—think Katrinas.
This character smacks of some kind of ‘agent’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Even paranoids have enemies……]
On October 10, 2012 at 3:07 pm, thefatefullightning said:
US Army, made Spec Four twice. 11C40. RVN Classof ’68, Americal Div. worked CAP Units with your boys, Mr. Smith.
Your comments about inferior performance being something that you “would expect from the Army” are out of place, mister. They are divisive in a world where we all bleed and fight together, sometimes against declared enemies sometimes against well-intentioned but misguided politicicans, but TOGETHER.
Clean it up.
On October 10, 2012 at 3:22 pm, Herschel Smith said:
Taking this a little personally, are we?
On October 10, 2012 at 4:26 pm, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: thefatefullightning
RE: Heh
Americal?
’nuff said.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
LTC, IN (Ret)
Airborne, Ranger, Mustang
Enlisted 1970. Retired 1997.
Two tours 82d: one enlisted, one commissioned.
One 4ID(M): company command, battalion, brigade, division staff puke (deputy director of the division TAC)
P.S. What’s my point?
[1] Americal WAS an inferior unit.
[2] Divisiveness can be useful. I’m reminded of a barroom brawl at Fort Irwin, before it became the NTC. Paratroopers vs. tankers. But when the MPs showed up, it was paras and tankers vs. MPs. I suspect you can follow where this might lead in the current environment.
On October 10, 2012 at 4:39 pm, bud said:
I liked most of what you wrote, but I couldn’t let the old Army infantry vs Marine calumny stand.
Personally, I have no gravitas (the advantage of a BSEE when drafted: a Signal Corp REMF), BUT…
To quote my stepfather (RIP) – first wave Omaha Beach- “The Marines ain’t nothin’ but the infantry with a good press agent.”
On October 10, 2012 at 5:02 pm, Chuck Pelto said:
P.P.S. What was it that Old Book said about divisiveness….
As iron sharpens iron, so does one man sharpen his friend.
And by the way, just because we ridicule each other, time to time, doesn’t mean we hate each other…..
Get your game on…..
On October 10, 2012 at 7:04 pm, Herschel Smith said:
Oooh. Exposed emotions. Step on them – fast!
Bud, you say that you have no dog in this fight, but why did you get a degree like BSEE? Why didn’t you get something useful like a BSME?
On October 10, 2012 at 11:06 pm, bud said:
My 55 chev would blow the doors off my buddy’s 59 dodge. At the time, we were both juniors and he was taking Mech Engr, so I didn’t think I could learn anything from a BSME. ;-)
On October 11, 2012 at 7:07 am, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: Bud
RE: Marines and the Press
Heh…..
….I recall reports that the reason a Marine squad has so many men in it is because of the camera crew.
Then again, President Harry Truman said….
They have a propaganda machine that is almost equal to Stalin’s.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. I admire the crazy guys in Marine Recon.
I remember them from Basic Airborne School. Walking back from the PX to the barracks one night, I heard, “Six. Seven. Eight. Nine. Ten! Okay it’s my turn,” coming out of the night sky. Looking around and then up, the Recon guys in my class were doing pull-ups off the edge of the walk-around on the water tower.
On October 15, 2012 at 10:02 am, w frederick said:
Russia utilized women very successfully as pilots and snipers in WWII. In my 3 years in the army I saw a lot of men who were too wimpy to pack a combat load. We called them clerks. I have no problem with women taking the course IF THEY CAN PASS THE SAME FITNESS TEST THAT MEN DO without dumbing it down.
On October 15, 2012 at 10:11 am, Herschel Smith said:
Pilots has to do with this conversation how, exactly?
On October 15, 2012 at 5:51 pm, thearticulategrunt said:
The perfumed princes will do anything to protect their new vision of a PC armed forces and perfect integration.
-A female under my command was raped, the CSM and 3 senior NCOs tried forcing her to recant her story and cover it up. I got her the help she needed and took care of my soldier.
-Months prior to the repeal of dont ask dont tell I had over 50 complaints against 4 females for inappropriate activities, in an AIT unit. I moved to prosecute and they filed false EO complaints. I disproved every point of their complaints.
-I spent 3 years in medical recovery from injuries in Iraq and am still undergoing surgeries and physical therapy.
–The three items above led to my “promotion” to a brigade shop as I had “lost the faith of the NCOs”.
-A female my age can run the 2 mile 6 seconds slower than what I need for 60pts and score 100pts.
-I cannot get promoted due to lack of command time as no one will touch me for being a whistle blowing rat fink for getting the female soldier medical help.
–Thus I have been notified in 6-9 months I will be seperated from service for being a whistle blowing, faith loosing, regulation enforcing(non-PC), non PT stud (can’t argue with the last one). No charges were brought against anyone even after I proved they lied btw, apparently there was insufficient evidence.
We all better stay tough cause someone is going to have to pick up the pieces when everything goes to hell in a Chinese made hand bag. lol
On October 15, 2012 at 6:15 pm, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: w frederick
RE: About ‘Clerks’
You obviously didn’t read my comment about Chesty Puller calling for reinforcements to hold of determined Banzai attacks and being told that all there were left were cooks and clerks.
His reply was…..
Send them up. Any of them still alive in the morning will be Marines.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Got daughters?
On October 15, 2012 at 6:21 pm, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: thearticulategrunt
RE: Heh
Welcome to the party, pal!
Got a bad report card from one of the perfuned princes because I stood up for my men when he was making life miserable for them.
When I set aside my sergeant stripes and took on my lieutenants bars I made the ‘mistake’ of not setting aside my candor.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. The SOB made three stars. He was cut from the same bolt of cloth as Wesley Clark, who I knew as the armor batt commander in my brigade in the early 80s.
On October 16, 2012 at 5:13 pm, Travis said:
Why do we keep circle jerking about physical standards? The issue of women in combat (nay, even the military to a great degree) is circular. I acknowledge that there are freak women who can do the physical tasks. Do we change policy to accomodate them as so many have timidly suggested? NO! The reason is that when you have women who are capable, there will always be horny young men who want to screw them. And screw they shall. I served as an Army infantry officer in three Iraq deployments. I saw close and personal COMBAT (with a BIG C) bailing out our USMC brothers in Najaf in 2004 (I had to mention it). And I served on staff with the ash and trash. I’ve seen mixed gender units. They screw like rabbits because they are kids away from home and with no rules. It’s a damned disgrace and it’s unbelievable that any father sends his daughter to a combat zone. Hell, it’s a disgrace that the men of this country let women march to war in their stead. So the man who says, “let them if they can meet the same standard” is either mentally deficient, or never served around a mixed gender unit. They never saw a unit in which a female platoon leader told her men she was available to them, or a unit in which the first sergeant was preying upon his young enlisted girls.
What I’d like to know is this: we’re pissed and rightfully so. So what the hell are we going to do to protect the combat arms and the mission of our military? As a collective group of combat vets, we need to write to representatives and start telling the likes of Gen Amos and Gen Odierno to go pound sand! America’s ignorance and the silence of its veterans is killing its Armed Forces.
On October 17, 2012 at 8:23 am, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: Travis
RE: Good Points…..
….however there is one you might have overlooked.
Consider the child-bearing/rearing of a woman who is now a paraplegic due to combat injury.
Consider the orphaned child of that Hopi Indian maid who was with Jessica Lynch when her convoy got ambushed. [NOTE: She survived the ambush but was murdered by her captors at the hospital where sweet, blonde Jessica was being treated. Three guess why they wanted HER alive. First two don’t count.]
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out…..women should be nowhere forward of the COMMZ.]
On October 21, 2012 at 9:18 pm, DirtyMick said:
As of last week those two females that were going through the Marine Infantry Officer Course dropped. One the first day and the second one a week or so later due to medical reasons
On October 23, 2012 at 7:42 am, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: All
RE: Female Weakness
The neighbors grand-daughter went off to the Army a couple of years ago. She came back from Basic with a medical discharge after breaking BOTH her andles.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. She’s a real cutie. A waste for her to go into the Army. Air Force would be better.
On October 23, 2012 at 7:43 am, Chuck Pelto said:
That SHOULD read….
….both her ankles.
On October 24, 2012 at 11:50 pm, Daniel Smith said:
In response to Melissa Schneider, and “dirtymike” :) First DirtyM, thats a funny name. I would like to introduce myself. My father is herschel smith. So now that we have the intro’s down, what I want to first talk about is Melissa Scheider’s comment of wanting to be in a Tank, or wanting to be on a gunline of 12 155mm’s firing 3 rounds a piece. During the last bit of my contract (6 months to be exact) I was put into a FAP. Don’t ask me what that stands for, as me and my fellow Marines could never find it out to save our lives. I ended up in a Military Police company. In that company, were other FAP transfers. One of them was an arty guy. After hearing stories of being on a gun line of 155’s and him being in and out of surgery for ruptured disks in his back, I am sorry to say, that women cannot, and should not be allowed to be anywhere near them. If anyone does not know, a 155mm shell weighs about 150 pounds. A team of Marines run 1 gun, and they are switched out every call for fire. A call for fire means all 12 guns fire three rounds. so in total, 1 Marine will have to carry 450 pounds to and from a gun in under usually 1 minute. Thats where the injuries take place. Not all at once, but over time. I also understand Melissa that you are an officer? If so, this does not make you impervious to this job. You will have to work every job each Marine has to be given any respect from your fellow Grunt’s. If you don’t, they will simply find a way to make you leave and find another job. I’ve done it before with my squad. What I’m trying to say is, I’m sure you would make a great addition to any gun line or taking over a commander’s spot in a tank; but the fact remains that these “higher ups” who are proposing this idea of integration do not know what they are asking. I would bet a paycheck that if you asked a Grunt what his thoughts were on it, they would say hell yea!! It would be good entertainment for us to watch women fail miserably and take our minds off of being shot at day in and day out.
On October 24, 2012 at 11:56 pm, Daniel Smith said:
Sorry for the grammatical errors and poor grammar, its late right now…
On October 25, 2012 at 9:15 am, Herschel Smith said:
FAP: “Fleet Assistance Program”
http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCO%201000.8.pdf
They’re nothing if not great with acronyms. Or awful, depending upon your perspective.
On October 25, 2012 at 1:07 pm, Chuck Pelto said:
TO: Daniel Smith
RE: I Disagree
….these “higher ups” who are proposing this idea of integration do not know what they are asking. — Daniel Smith
They KNOW. They just don’t GIVE A DAMN! At least about the survival of our people in combat. Let alone the fate of the nation.
They are altogether ‘evil’. — Gandalf the Grey
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out…..]
On October 25, 2012 at 1:31 pm, Chuck Pelto said:
P.S. If it’s bad for America, Obama–and his mindless minions—will do it.
On October 25, 2012 at 5:45 pm, DirtyMick said:
@Daniel Smith I got the nickname when I was AD from my irish last name and it’s kind of stuck ever since. When I ETS’d (EAS’d for you guys in the Corps) They even had my nickname engraved on the picture frame my Team bought me as my going away gift.