Weapon Concealment In A Non-Permissive Environment
BY Herschel Smith
8 years, 6 months ago
Last weekend I enjoyed the days off from my police and teaching jobs by going to a couple of concerts. I really enjoy seeing live music, but I don’t enjoy the “security” ordeals at most live music venues. One of the venues I attended did patdown searches. The other used a wand metal detector. No weapons allowed. No exceptions…not even for sworn police officers.
That presented me with a dilemma. While state law allows me to carry into both venues, I would be denied entrance if a weapon was found on my person during the searches. I wasn’t breaking the law by entering with a firearm, but I would be violating the venue’s policies and would be kicked out of the show.
Locations like these, where one is legally able to carry a weapon, but is denied that right by a company policy are often referred to as being “Non-Permissive Environments.” Some of you no doubt have experience with such locations. Many times the non-permissive environment is the firearm owner’s workplace. Workers in high paying careers don’t want to take the chance of losing their employment if they carry a weapon against company policy.
There is another option. One can carry a weapon into these locations without consequences so long as he is not caught! Alternate tactics and carry methods must be employed, but it is entirely possible to pull off with just a little effort and some good bluffing abilities. I wasn’t about to attend a concert surrounded by 10,000 drunken fans without having the ability to protect myself and my girlfriend. In order to be armed, I had to carry in such a way that my weapons wouldn’t be detected by security. I’m happy to say that I attended both events armed with both a gun and a couple knives.
Here’s how I did it….
[ … ]
Don’t carry a weapon in any place where you are prohibited by law from doing so. Use these techniques only in places where it is LEGAL, but against company policy, to carry a weapon.
I seriously doubt that the writer can name instances where it is legal but against policy and posting to carry weapons, whether an off duty LEO or a CHP holder. And if it was legal for him to be there with a weapon, why did he have to hide it? Oh, because they would have thrown him out. Okay, why? Because they posted and had corporate policy simply because they can, because it’s their property and not his.
The cop carried concealed, off duty, onto private property where it was against policy [and likely posted] for him to have a weapon. And until proven to be legal, I assume that this is illegal. I know of no exceptions that stipulate that it’s legal if you can get away with it.
Hey, I wonder whether this same cop, on duty, would turn his head and let someone go because they carried onto property where it was against policy and posted that no weapons were allowed? Would this same cop turn a blind eye to the guy who just wanted to be able to protect himself like the cop wanted means of self defense at these concerts? Or is he willing to risk this only because he is a LEO and gets special consideration?
And so even though he doesn’t specifically say so, he recommends breaking the law, but it’s all okay because he says he isn’t recommending that you break the law. As for me, I am not weighing in on whether you should carry against policy and posting. I’m saying that this dual standard turns me off. It left a very bitter taste with me. Comments are closed at his article.
On April 21, 2016 at 6:22 am, Lina Inverse said:
The cop carried concealed, off duty, onto private property where it was against policy [and likely posted] for him to have a weapon. And until proven to be legal, I assume that this is illegal. I know of no exceptions that stipulate that it’s legal if you can get away with it.
It’s entirely legal in most prohibited by law or posting venues in Missouri, the most they can do is tell you to leave, and then of course call the police if you won’t. First offense if they have to do the latter is a slap on the wrist, you’d be in more trouble for the trespassing you’d undoubtedly be charged with.
On April 21, 2016 at 9:10 am, Herschel Smith said:
No. I’ll use my home state of North Carolina as an example. It is illegal to carry somewhere against posting. Not inadvisable, but illegal. It’s not just that you can be expelled for it, you can have your gun confiscated, arrested, sent to jail for the day, summoned to court, and CHP revoked. Not inadvisable – illegal.
This is true of all of my adjoining states of Tennessee, South Carolina and Virginia. I also know it to be true of Texas.
I didn’t ask what you can get away with, or what they will do to you if they catch you. I posed the question about legality. Of this I am certain in at least some states, and others I suspect are similar. Knowingly carrying against posting is illegal.
Period.
On April 21, 2016 at 9:32 am, MrApple said:
At least now in NC the punishment for carry in a posted area (business) is just an “infraction” with up to a $500 fine as opposed to the misdemeanor that it used to be.
On April 21, 2016 at 10:34 am, Herschel Smith said:
I just renewed my CHP in Gaston County, and I’m not so sure about that. I’ll have to look. But still, it is illegal.
The cop is recommending that someone break the law. I have no comment on the morality of this, nor whether someone carries concealed in a posted area. He is making this recommendation knowing full well that he and I would be treated differently if caught.
On April 21, 2016 at 1:02 pm, MrApple said:
Too bad criminals don’t share you concern over a sticker on a business door.
I decided long ago that concealed carry means CONCEALED and that unless I’m going through a metal detector or getting patted down I carry. Crooks don’t bother with the signs so why should I just to maintain the illusion of safety.
A great resource for gun laws across the US:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/
On April 21, 2016 at 11:07 am, Jim Wiseman said:
Confirming the $500 fine. And rest assured it will be no less. I find it odd (not really) that the fining authority benefits from the fine, not the property owner.
NC should do away with the fine altogether and make it a trespassing charge if the CHP holder is “made” and refuses to leave, like in Georgia.
On April 21, 2016 at 12:58 pm, MrApple said:
Agreed.
On April 21, 2016 at 10:33 am, Lina Inverse said:
“No” what? Read the Missouri Revised Statutes, Section 571.107.1 and .2. The first lists many but not all of the forbidden places (a separate law covers public transportation and was not updated when concealed carry went shall issue, that’s starting to get fixed now), this is the beginning of subsection 2:
Then the penalties get serious.
On April 21, 2016 at 10:35 am, Herschel Smith said:
This is a much less serious issue than in many other states, where it is illegal.
On April 21, 2016 at 4:11 pm, sage419 said:
Depends on the state. NV allows posting of private property, but it does not carry penalty of law to ignore. The property owner may trespass you if caught, but unless you return, nothing further. And even if you return, it is a trespassing charge, not a gun-related charge.
On April 22, 2016 at 8:58 am, Jeff said:
It is explicitly LEGAL in my state to carry into a posted venue, with the proper ccw permit. The law says specifically that someone with that permit can carry in places posted against carry.
On April 22, 2016 at 11:05 am, Herschel Smith said:
I’ve learned a lot from the comments for this article about how the states vary. What you described is certainly not legal in mine. Now, that isn’t to say that the punishment is extreme or even that it is a felony, or that a good lawyer can’t get you out of the immediate aftermath of said event. But I think folks might be missing a little here on what I’ve been trying to say.
Having had such an infraction can lead to “police reports,” “event reports” and other such thinks on record, or even more formal records with the county. This kind of thing is cataloged and searchable in background checks, which could affect job prospects and it CERTAINLY would affect whether a CLEO decides to continue to allow your CHP or renew it.
On April 22, 2016 at 9:18 pm, Chuck said:
In Georgia, there is no allowance for posting as there is in NC. You can only be asked to leave. If you refuse, it is considered trespassing, but until then you break no laws irrespective of any signs posted.
On April 21, 2016 at 8:37 am, Frank Clarke said:
Comments are closed most likely because he caught a shitstorm from people with principles rather than just authoriteh…
On April 21, 2016 at 8:58 am, Jeff said:
“I seriously doubt that the writer can name instances where it is legal but against policy and posting to carry weapons, whether an off duty LEO or a CHP holder….
And so even though he doesn’t specifically say so, he recommends breaking the law…”
I can give you literally hundreds of specific instances of the former in my state, including the building where I am present every day. Further, I see absolutely NOTHING in the posted excerpt which indicates that he is breaking any law or recommending that anyone else break the law.
FAIL on this article!
On April 21, 2016 at 9:12 am, Herschel Smith said:
See response to Lina Inverse above. Cite examples or stuff it. I’m not interesting in your mouthing off. If you wish to contribute, then do so with facts. Otherwise, shut up. Examples being that private property can post, but it’s legal to carry there anyway. LEGAL according to state law – to carry where they clearly post against it.
On April 21, 2016 at 10:37 am, Lina Inverse said:
And see my reply, “shall not be a criminal act” in Missouri as the law negates a big list of enumerated prohibitions including posting, provided that you leave if you’re asked to.
On April 21, 2016 at 10:38 am, Herschel Smith said:
The “shall not be a criminal act” part I suspect to be very recent.
On April 21, 2016 at 10:42 am, Lina Inverse said:
As far as I know it was like this when the concealed carry law was enacted in 2004 or thereabouts. It was thus written when I moved back to the state and got my license in 2008.
Is it really that difficult for you to admit that, in this one I’m sure unusual case in an unusual state, that you are wrong?
On April 21, 2016 at 11:08 am, xtphreak said:
Only one I can think of is in SC, the law very specifically defines what the posted sign must be, size, contents, type size and location.
If the business “posts” with anything other than the sign as stated in the law, it isn’t actually posted.
SC Code SECTION § 23-31-215. Issuance of permits
M) A permit issued pursuant to this section does not authorize a permit holder to carry a concealable weapon into a:
(10) place clearly marked with a sign prohibiting the carrying of a concealable weapon on the premises pursuant to Sections 23-31-220 and 23-31-235. Except that a property owner or an agent acting on his behalf, by express written consent, may allow individuals of his choosing to enter onto property regardless of any posted sign to the contrary.
A person who violates a provision of this item, whether the violation is wilful
or not, only may be charged with a violation of Section 16-11-620 and
must not be charged with or penalized for a violation of this subsection.
Except as provided for in item (10), a person who wilfully violates a provision
of this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be
fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than one year,
or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five
years
SECTION 16-11-620. Entering premises after warning or refusing to leave on request; jurisdiction and enforcement.
Any person who, without legal cause or good excuse, enters into the dwelling
house, place of business, or on the premises of another person after having
been warned not to do so or any person who, having entered into the dwelling
house, place of business, or on the premises of another person without having
been warned fails and refuses, without good cause or good excuse, to leave
immediately upon being ordered or requested to do so by the person in
possession or his agent or representative shall, on conviction, be fined not
more than two hundred dollars or be imprisoned for not more than thirty days.
All municipal courts of this State as well as those of magistrates may try and
determine criminal cases involving violations of this section occurring within
the respective limits of such municipalities and magisterial districts. All
peace officers of the State and its subdivisions shall enforce the provisions
hereof within their respective jurisdictions.
The provisions of this section shall be construed as being in addition to, and
not as superseding, any other statutes of the State relating to trespass or
entry on lands of another.
HISTORY: 1962 Code Section 16-388; 1960 (51) 1729; 1981 Act No. 76, Section 3;
1996 Act No. 279, Section 1.
SC Code § 23-31-235 (2012)
(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this article, any requirement of or allowance for the posting of signs prohibiting the carrying of a concealable weapon upon any premises shall only be satisfied by a sign expressing the prohibition in both written language interdict and universal sign language.
(B) All signs must be posted at each entrance into a building where a
concealable weapon permit holder is prohibited from carrying a concealable
weapon and must be:
(1) clearly visible from outside the building;
(2) eight inches wide by twelve inches tall in size;
(3) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black
one-inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the
lateral edges of the sign;
(4) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle seven inches in
diameter with a diagonal line that runs from the lower left to the upper right
at a forty-five degree angle from the horizontal;
(5) a diameter of a circle; and
(6) placed not less than forty inches and not more than sixty inches from the
bottom of the building’s entrance door.
(C) If the premises where concealable weapons are prohibited does not have
doors, then the signs contained in subsection (A) must be:
(1) thirty-six inches wide by forty-eight inches tall in size;
(2) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black
three- inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between
the lateral edges of the sign;
(3) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle thirty-four inches
in diameter with a diagonal line that is two inches wide and runs from the
lower left to the upper right at a forty-five degree angle from the horizontal
and must be a diameter of a circle whose circumference is two inches wide;
(4) placed not less than forty inches and not more than ninety-six inches above
the ground;
(5) posted in sufficient quantities to be clearly visible from any point of
entry onto the premises.
HISTORY: 1996 Act No. 464, Section 13; 2002 Act No. 274, Section 5.
On April 21, 2016 at 11:26 am, Herschel Smith said:
“Except as provided for in item (10), a person who wilfully violates a provision of this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than one year, or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five years.”
Yea, S.C. takes this stuff seriously. Concealing a pistol in your crotch to hide it near a belt buckle would be considered willful. I’m certain that most S.C. judges would see it that way. You could do prison time.
On April 21, 2016 at 3:28 pm, xtphreak said:
You missed the point that “Except as provided for in item (10), …”
Item (10) is what we’re looking at, so the penalty goes to
“…A person who violates a provision of this item, whether the violation is willful or not, only may be charged with a violation of Section 16-11-620 and must not be charged with or penalized for a violation of this subsection. ”
SECTION 16-11-620. Entering premises after warning or refusing to leave on request; jurisdiction and enforcement.
Any person who, without legal cause or good excuse, enters into the dwelling house, place of business, or on the premises of another person after having been warned not to do so or any person who, having entered into the dwelling house, place of business, or on the premises of another person without having been warned fails and refuses, without good cause or good excuse, to leave immediately upon being ordered or requested to do so by the person in possession or his agent or representative shall, on conviction, be fined not more than two hundred dollars or be imprisoned for not more than thirty days.
On April 21, 2016 at 3:45 pm, Herschel Smith said:
Thanks for the clarification. A N.C. Sheriff would use any of this as reason to pull your CHP and never allow you to have one again. I’ve seen lesser things used, while waiting in line at the Sheriff’s office.
On April 27, 2016 at 9:43 am, Jeff said:
Attitude much?
On April 27, 2016 at 10:27 am, Herschel Smith said:
Are you speaking of yourself here? No, learn to contribute without sounding like a jackass, be a good visitor and don’t bend over and drop a turd on the floor of the house you walk into. You don’t do that in your own home. Then things will go okay.
On April 21, 2016 at 9:31 am, Roger V. Tranfaglia said:
An argument/debate in legal/philosophical semantics?
On April 21, 2016 at 10:38 am, Herschel Smith said:
My main point was as I stated in the comments above, i.e., the cop knows full well that if caught, he and I would be treated differently, at least in my state. An internal affairs investigation would reprimand him at the office. For me, other things could happen.
On April 21, 2016 at 8:34 pm, will_ford said:
In Texas the venue has to have the correct signage or It is in fact illegal to post. The new law was written with the new LTC law. they are in a big tizzie now about the law at court houses through out Texas
On April 25, 2016 at 9:14 pm, Roger V. Tranfaglia said:
Ok,
I got it now. Yea if it was you or I our heads would be nailed to the wall.
However Its not like a court house with armed guards with “wands” standing at the door…..don’t ask, don’t tell…….
Read an article elsewhere last week ATF does NOT like to be “asked” ANY type of question dealing w/firearms.
Something to do with too much work trying to come up with a new “law”.
On April 21, 2016 at 10:33 am, Fred said:
Even if signs don’t carry force of law, in a state, the carrier, if on posted property, is trespassing. It’s private property. Similar to hunting. If you are not invited to hunt private property you are trespassing, doesn’t matter what’s in season, how many permits or tags. Posted means posted and It’s trespassing minimum. Trespassing can get you anything from kicked off to very small trouble to dead. Used to be that when somebody indicated that they did not want to do business with a person, then the free exchange of goods or services would be done elsewhere. Now we have gays insisting that somebody bake them cake and gun owners insisting that they be able to do business where they are not wanted. We are blessed be beyond understanding. There is no shortage of confectioners or anything else. Take your business to somebody that will appreciate it. Don’t do business where you ain’t wanted. Period.
On April 22, 2016 at 9:03 am, Jeff said:
We have public, government buildings in my state which are open to the general public, but posted against guns. There is no law allowing such posting of public property and no law making it illegal to carry there (with permit or openly), even if the signs were legal. Since the areas are public, there is no trespassing violation. So the agencies are unable to figure out what to arrest/charge anyone with who disobeys the sign, since no law was violated.
On April 22, 2016 at 10:45 am, Fred said:
Good. I was referring to private property. That gov claims ultimate authority and control of most public property is just one more reason to tar and feather…and rails.
On April 21, 2016 at 10:56 am, Blake said:
I believe, as someone who respects rights of businesses, I have to respect the wishes of business owners who do not want weapons on their property.
The person who wrote about getting around the clearly stated wishes of the business owners is a person of no principle whatsoever.
He “wanted” to go see live music and what he wanted was more important than principles. On top of that, carrying into a venue full of drunks is asking for trouble.
If I encounter a business that has a “no guns” policy, that’s a business that obviously prefers not to have my business. So, I go elsewhere. Which is what this clever person should have done to begin with.
From start to finish, this is an appalling mindset and I cannot believe this person thinks he’s “clever.”
On April 21, 2016 at 11:37 am, Archer said:
The person who wrote about getting around the clearly stated wishes of
the business owners is a person of no principle whatsoever.
[…]
From start to finish, this is an appalling mindset and I cannot believe this person thinks he’s “clever.”
And he’s a cop. Kinda gives you the warm fuzzies, don’t it?
On April 24, 2016 at 2:09 am, Ben Pottinger said:
But what if I as the business owner didn’t want anyone with white underwear coming into my establishment. Colored undies only. Of course I can’t see what underclothes my customers are wearing so I can’t really enforce this “rule”. Banning CCW is no different. If they can’t see the weapon then it’s not really any of their business if I have one or not. Calling it “principles” is just silly. Especially considering the vast majority of these signs are put up in a misguided attempt to avoid legal liability and not for some political reason (most smart business people want to avoid overt political statements, your bound to upset someone).
In Kentucky you can and should ignore these signs without penalty. The CLEO also has no real say in renewing your CCW, if you can legally own a gun you can legally get a CCW. The OPs problem is he lives in NC, a state that makes speeding a *felony* (or did when I lived there 20 years ago). The OP should be more concerned that the CLEO apparently has so much leeway to deny a permit.
I’ve actually been in a situation where being able to hide a gun from “wanding” was important and not even “unprincipled”. I was going to see a pre-release movie and they were wanding people looking for phones to keep people from recording the movie. I couldn’t exactly whip out my carry gun in the middle of the line of 50 people and say “see, not a phone! Just a gun!” legal or not! Lol I almost made it but he picked up the extra magazine I had in my pocket (dumb me) and asked me to empty my pockets. I said “no” and walked off, much to his confusion, lol. We ended up watching a non pre release movie instead that didn’t involve wanding.
On April 21, 2016 at 12:12 pm, Chris said:
I’ll leave the discussions of legality to others. What I find untenable was this:
“I wasn’t about to attend a concert surrounded by 10,000 drunken fans
without having the ability to protect myself and my girlfriend.”
Just what pistol will protect you from 10,000 drunken idiots intent on harm? I don’t care if it’s six rounds or 32 rounds, a drunken crazed mob can take you down – by intent, or by panic. Like Ol’ Remus says, stay out of crowds. Especially drunken crowds.
On April 21, 2016 at 5:32 pm, Travis Roberts said:
It wouldn’t be illegal in the state of Washington. Signage by the business owner does not carry the weight of law. The most that can be done in my state would be for the business to ask you to leave if caught, and then the the only thing that could bring the law into the mix is if you refuse to leave for which you could be trespassed.
On April 21, 2016 at 6:23 pm, whitestone said:
Here’s my take… Let me state that while I’m not a lawyer, I can read and understand words reasonably well.
Since the writer is from Ohio, we’ll use the Ohio Revised Code. The scenario is that this individual wants to carry at a venue that prohibits firearms and serves alcohol. I’ll break this down into two parts here… The code ORC-2923.121, in a nutshell, states that if you’re a LEO or otherwise permitted individual “acting within
the scope of the officer’s, agent’s, or employee’s duties” OR a CHL holder, you can carry concealed in a place that serves alcoholic beverages as long as you, the carrier, consumes NO alcohol. Take a drink, and all bets are off, you just violated the “reasonable person test”.
ORC-2923.126 “Duties of licensed individual” outlines the places that you are not permitted to carry, both public and private.
As far as a private venue prohibiting firearms, as long that the required signage is posted in a conspicuous location you can be not permitted entry, or asked to leave if it’s discovered later, if you refuse, it’s a 4th degree misdemeanor of criminal trespass. The big thing here is the consumption of alcohol or other intoxicants… getting into a situation with anything bad on your breath or bloodstream negates any positive that you may have wanted to accomplish by exercising your rights. Either way, I don’t want to be the one setting precedent.
I’m with some of the others in the opinion that the best way to stay out of a bad situation is to not get into it in the first place… in other words, If you don’t want to get hit by a train, don’t play on the tracks!
On April 22, 2016 at 6:32 pm, Louis Chapman said:
In most places, this is entirely legal. Except where prohibited by law, all a company owner can do is ask you to leave. If you refuse, you can be charged with trespassing.
On April 23, 2016 at 2:49 am, Daniel Barger said:
Carrying a weapon in a ‘non permissive location’ meaning a place where the law says you CAN legally carry but the venue says you cannot is NOT breaking any laws therefore it is perfectly legal to do so. If it was illegal then the owners of said venue could have you arrested for carrying….they cannot. The MOST they can do is ask you to leave, if at that point you refuse the ONLY law you would be breaking would be trespass laws. Unless a specific statute lists a specific place or type of place as illegal to carry then the MOST that an facility and it’s owners can do is use trespass laws to keep you out.