Massad Ayoob’s Bad Advice
BY Herschel Smith
4 years, 3 months ago
This first video post-dates the second one I’m embedding. It’s Massad Ayoob’s answer to the second video I’m embedding. I’m interested in reader reactions to Massad’s advice. I’ve already told you what I think in the post title. And while we’re at it, take careful note that this is ground that smarter people that Ayoob have covered in detail.
On July 16, 2020 at 10:04 pm, George1 said:
Simply tell the police something alone the lines of : He or they tried to kill me or my family and me. I am very upset now and I need to speak to my attorney. Then say nothing more.
On July 17, 2020 at 12:20 am, AZM said:
And file a complaint against the aggressor.
On July 17, 2020 at 12:55 am, BRVTVS said:
There’s no question that Ayoob’s advice is bad. What I wonder is if he really believes it. Does he really think that’s good advice? It’s hard to believe he’s so naive.
On July 17, 2020 at 1:10 am, Aaron Yetter said:
No combat experience and never involved in a police shooting. Why does anyone listen to this guy. But sure has been responsible for a lot of dead trees because of his articles in gun magazines.
On July 17, 2020 at 2:29 am, JFP said:
I don’t think Ayoob is naive, just a product of his era. Too old school in thought combined with his pro police attitude (he was part time cop for 30+ years) and their thought processes. For him, the benefit of the doubt goes to the police before anyone else and that the responding cops opinion really matters.
Today it clearly doesn’t in any number of scenarios and I’d be more apt to follow the procedures police do in their shootings as mentioned in the one video.
On July 17, 2020 at 7:32 am, Fred said:
I am the victim of an attack. I have attorney. I’m happy to cooperate but only in his presence.
Ayoob is boot licker. Never listen to boot lickers because sooner or later they’ll tell you to get on the railcar.
On July 17, 2020 at 7:33 am, Nosmo said:
I don’t think there’s any question Ayoub is pro-cop, and strongly so, and that colors his view.
I think there’s a balance that’s missing: there is evidence that needs to be preserved, witnesses who need to be identified, the perpetrator’s actions that need to be presented, and the survivor’s position that needs to be established.
The problem arises when the intended victim who engaged in self defense has to bear the burden for much of that, which is the position the first responders put him in. I like the idea of the attorney providing his clients a “Miranda card” with the instructions printed on it; the next step, however, seems to be missing – rehearsal.
Hopefully, none of us will ever go through that experience, and thankfully, few do, but when, or if, it happens it’s virgin territory, and exploring new ground in the dark often leads to stepping off an unseen cliff. The self-defender process needs a “training and rehearsal step,” preferably administered by one’s competent attorney, with some role playing, so the prospective future self-defender has more understanding about the process, especially its local peculiarities, and what’s in it. There’s an advantage to “having seen this movie before.”
And, while he can certainly make a contribution to the process, I don’t think Massad Ayoub – or any police officer, present or former – is the right person to do that training.
On July 17, 2020 at 7:57 am, ragman said:
I have never paid any attention to what this guy said.
On July 17, 2020 at 8:27 am, Ned said:
Once you open the door and offer testimony, you can’t necessarily re-invoke the right to remain silent on the subject and stick the genie back in the bottle.
Prosecutions are created by people who made well meaning statements instead of shutting TF up.
I’m going with the advice of multiple lawyers over that of a retired LEO gun scribe.
On July 17, 2020 at 8:35 am, Michael (from Utah) said:
Have to agree with the others. From what I’ve seen of him, Massad Ayoob is too Pro-police for my tastes. Just shut up and ask for an attorney.
On July 17, 2020 at 9:17 am, June J said:
“I’m Massab Ayoob and I know better than experienced defense attorneys, including those who defend police officers in shootings.”
No, I think I will stick with the advice of multitudes of experienced defense attorneys.
On July 17, 2020 at 10:21 am, scott s. said:
I think the point of the lawyer is that at the scene, you probably can’t think clearly and are apt to say something that isn’t fact-based but will be used by the prosecutor. Ayoob seems to believe you can get the cop “on your side” and will let your comments go by (but in these days of body/dash cams that I don’t think that is going to happen).
On July 17, 2020 at 11:16 am, Bad_Brad said:
The guy I go to for my Carry Permit is an ex Sheriff. Pretty high up. He’s also a post certified trainer. He’s recently retired. His advice, after a shoot call 911 and ask for medical assistance for a GSW upper torso, hang up. Here’s his logic. LE knows where you are when you make that cell phone call within about 6 seconds. The 911 operator will try and keep you on the line until the cops arrive. It’s a recorded conversation and evidence. Your adrenaline will still be running and your apt to say something stupid. Hang up. Call your wife, tell her don’t let anybody in without a warrant. When LE does arrive cooperate, don’t answer any questions. “I’m sorry officer, on the advice of my attorney I can’t say anything until he’s present”. Plan on getting cuffed and hauled off. But as my instructor says, LE are NOT your friends. Concealed Carry insurance is cheap. Get some. Especially with what’s headed towards us.
On July 17, 2020 at 11:40 am, MTHead said:
Funny part is. Even the cops understand wanting an attorney now.
On July 17, 2020 at 1:15 pm, Ned2 said:
Had this conversation with a family member LEO from back east. Out here in our little corner of the west, we carry on our property almost anytime.
He had this routine back east where he would ask individuals at residences he responded to to disarm. I asked him if he thought he would disarm on his property to satisfy an LEO visiting him, and he said “no, because I’m a cop”.
I told him if he ever worked out here and requested an individual on their own property to disarm, the best scenario would be him getting laughed off the property, the worst they would physically disarm him, call the actual Sheriff and have him locked up for a myriad of reasons. He laughed. Typical cop mentality. They think they are above the law, it doesn’t apply to them and they can do what they want.
On July 17, 2020 at 5:08 pm, brunop said:
Massad Ayoob defends people (cops and civilians) as a paid expert. He might know what he’s talking about, too.
Seems like a pretty good point he makes about:
a. Don’t act like a criminal: innocent people talk. Stupid innocent people talk stupidly. You don’t have to talk a lot…
b. Saying that you were attacked and in fear for your life to ‘orient’ the cops’ gathering of evidence and report writing? Pretty good idea. Way better than, “I’m not saying anything until my attorney gets here. Figure it out yourself.”
c. “I will testify against him/them.” Good.
d. “Point out the evidence”. Bad. What, are you the Investigator? Are you going to be able to look the dude over for “hidden” or “trapped” casings? Stupid.
e. “Point out the witnesses.” Bad. You might have just chosen the morons, liars, and/or people who didn’t see anything and are looking for their 15 minutes of being in front of a camera. Also looks like you are trying to ‘build a case’ for yourself or the cops, which they think will looks bad.
f. “Officer – you’re going to have my full cooperation – after I’ve spoken to my attorney.” Good. You say you’re cooperative, but you need your guy. As someone said above, even cops ‘get’ that.
So why not make it super short:
You: “He attacked me. I was in fear for my life. I want to press charges and/or testify against him.”
Cop: “Yeah, okay. Tell me again exactly what happened.”
You: “Officer, you’re going to have my complete cooperation – just as soon as I’ve spoken with my attorney.”
BTW, Clint Smith (ex cop) and Founder / Owner @ Thunder Ranch has been saying this same thing: “He attacked me. I was in fear for my life. I want to press charges against him.” – and then SHUT THE HELL UP – for at least the past twenty years since I’ve known him.
On July 18, 2020 at 12:18 am, Hudson H Luce said:
I did criminal defense law for fifteen years, maybe after this current nonsense comes to an end, I’ll take it up again. Going out to jails to interview clients right now just isn’t something I’m interested in doing, just about now. OK, having said that, my advice is simple: Say “I want to talk to my attorney” and then shut up. Say *nothing* more. *Anything* you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. If they put you in jail, don’t talk to cellmates, they might try to get you to talk, so they can turn state’s evidence against you and either get charges dropped or get a lesser sentence. The *only* person you talk to is your attorney. Period. Oh, and cops lie and pull all sorts of tricks to get you to talk. Don’t fall for *any* of it, just keep quiet.
On July 18, 2020 at 2:29 am, Dan said:
The sad reality is that far too often the FACTS in an incident are FAR less relevant than the beliefs and agenda of the cops, prosecutors and judges who will be involved after the incident. The only real advice that matters is to SHUT THE F**K UP and talk to an attorney. PERIOD. There is ABSOLUTEY NOTHING that you can say that can HELP YOU and just about EVERYTHING you say can and will be used to HURT YOU.
On July 18, 2020 at 9:04 am, Herschel Smith said:
@Hudson Luce,
Yes. This. Do this. Do not talk to the police. Do not say anything.
On July 18, 2020 at 10:12 am, Bill Buppert said:
Mark is my attorney on retainer and Ayoob is a police supremacist stuck in the 1960s.
A slight corrective to in all of this, you MUST vocally invoke your right to remain silent.
Following the decision of Berghuis v. Thompkins (2010); the Supremes in a 5-4 judgment held that to invoke your right to remain silent, you must affirmatively invoke that right. There is no reason to not invoke your right to silence, and there is every reason to invoke your right to silence. Make sure to vocally express your right to silence, to legally protect your silence. Then request your lawyer.
When our children were younger, they even had cards on them that had these instruction in case they were ensnared by government apparatchiks.
This is even worse when dealing with Red Stasi forces like the FBI b/c their infamous Form 302 let’s them saying anything they want after an “interview”.
On July 18, 2020 at 7:16 pm, Ron said:
I carry a business card of a lawyer I used in NC in the past.
On the back it says
“Hello Officer,
I wish to cooperate with you. I do not, however wish to make any statements or consent to any searches. I wish to preserve all of my rights under the United States Constitution, including but not limited to the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments.
Please let me know if I am being detained, cited or arrested and advise me immediately or as soon as you can on when I will be free to leave.
If I am not free to leave, I now wish to call my attorney (name omitted) at ###-###-####.
Thank you”
I don’t keep him on retainer because I work out of state and it makes more sense for me to use USCCA.
Their card says on the back:
Call 911
Explain: “I was attacked, feared for my life and had to defend myself.”
Request: “Please send BOTH police and an ambulance to this location.”
Call USCCA Response
When responding officers arrive:
Comply: Follow all police instructions.
Explain: “I was attacked, feared for my life and had to defend myself.”
Identify: Point out evidence, witnesses and the attacker(s).
Request: Request medical attention, if necessary.
Silence: “I will cooperate 100%, but first I need my attorney.”
(Do not talk further without your lawyer present)
There are major similarities, but some differences.
I personally think if it’s possible to call 911 BEFORE the situation escalates to violence and let 911 record the interactions
I’m seriously in favor of dash cams and probably body cams (although I wonder it that could be misconstrued by an over zealous prosecutor).
On July 18, 2020 at 7:20 pm, Herschel Smith said:
@Ron,
How do you know that “evidence” will be interpreted as exculpatory? Best to let an attorney decide what to say, how to say it, and when to say it.
On July 18, 2020 at 9:19 pm, Bill Buppert said:
Ron,
“Identify: Point out evidence, witnesses and the attacker(s).”
I would advise against doing any of that.
On July 19, 2020 at 12:24 am, Ron said:
Just copied what’s on the back of the card guys.
My concern with not saying anything, is that they may get the actual bad guy(s)’s statement first, with the possibility (Ha!!) that he / they indicate that they are in fact the victim, while you’re waiting on your attorney at 0 dark 30 in the AM.
A deputy told me (after a home invasion), that his “job was much easier if there’s only one person filing a report.
On July 19, 2020 at 4:06 pm, brunop said:
“I just copied what’s on the back of the card, guys.”
This is my point. If you say literally NOTHING besides “I want my attorney”, you are going to be ‘assumed’ to have done something wrong by the cops.
If you think cops are all emotionless robots who are going to tirelessly search for and find the evidence – no matter what the outcome – then you are breaking your own position on cops and what they do.
Why not say the tiniest thing to get them ‘oriented’ in your direction or ‘on your team’?
“He attacked me (pointing at Bad Guy…)! I was in fear for my life. I’d like to press charges and testify against him.”
Cops: “Okay, tell me what happened, again.”
You: “I’m going to cooperate fully, but my attorney advised me to speak with him first if you don’t mind.” You don’t actually care if he “minds” or not.
That’s it. Don’t say anything else.
There is a difference between “Not talking to Police” and “Setting yourself up to be the target of the investigation.” Anyone who is not living under a rock knows that cops ‘miss’ evidence or influence investigations all the time. Since you all already believe this, why would you not set yourself up as the Good Guy?
On July 19, 2020 at 4:07 pm, brunop said:
Ha – pressed “Enter” too early.
Even the USCCA attorneys are saying you should say *something* to the cops to let them know that you are the Good Guy.
On August 8, 2020 at 12:39 pm, donnie owsley said:
I agree with Massad if it is a justified shooting and I agree with criminal defense attorney if it is an unjustified shooting.
1. Immideately call 911 and report that you have been assaulted and request medical assistance for your assailant.
2. Remain on the scene if safely possible (flight is circumstantil of guilt), and if not possible tell 911 that you had to flee for your safety.
3. Do not tamper with or conceal any evidence (circumstantial evidence of guilt).
4. Tell the responding officers those things which you will bear the burden of introducing into evidence to raise the defense of justification: I was doing nothing more than I had a legal right to be doing, the homicide victim attacked me without provocation, I was in fear of imminent great bodily harm or death, and it was necessary for me to shoot him in self defense. I have nothing more to say and would now like to speak to my attorney.
On August 8, 2020 at 12:48 pm, Herschel Smith said:
@donnie,
As soon as you open your mouth to utter the first piece of information, you’ve now forfeited your fifth amendment right. And BTW, regardless of what you say, the cop can hear it exactly the opposite and testify to that in court. The jury will believe the cop, not you. Finally, anything you say that exonerates you is inadmissible in court as “hearsay.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE&t=72s
On August 8, 2020 at 12:49 pm, donnie owsley said:
I agree with Massad if the shooting was justified and with the criminal defene attorney if the shooting was felonious. Start you defense with the 911 call by reporting that you have been assaulted and requesting medical assistance for your assailant. Otherwise, don’t try to justify your actions to the 911 operator. Tell the investigating officers that you were assaulted without provocation, that you feared for life and limb, and that it was ncesary for you to shoot in self defense and that you have nothing more to say, that you want a lawyer.
On August 8, 2020 at 12:54 pm, Herschel Smith said:
@donnie,
Again, and again, see post above.
” … Tell the investigating officers that you were assaulted without provocation, that you feared for life and limb, and that it was ncesary (sic) for you to shoot in self defense.”
NONE of that is admissible in court. Not … a … single … word.
But the cop can hear it as: “I thought I might be assaulted and I took action to prevent what could have happened and later regretted it.”
And he can testify to that in court.
If it’s exonerating, it’s inadmissible. If the state can use it to put you in prison, it is admissible. Do you understand now?