10mm Versus .357 Magnum
BY Herschel Smith
4 years, 3 months ago
There are other test setups that are not nearly as good or consistent, but I think he does a fairly good job of the testing. Frankly, the rounds performed about as expected, and also virtually the same.
In the bush, I’ll stick with .45 ACP or .450 SMC. In big bear country, I suspect most of them are committed to something larger and faster like the .454 Casull or .44 Magnum. I’ll have to say that while I’ve heard that 10mm is becoming a popular round in big bear country, I don’t think it’s going to do what it is purported to do.
On July 29, 2020 at 10:51 pm, George 1 said:
“I’ll have to say that while I’ve heard that 10mm is becoming a popular round in big bear country, I don’t think it’s going to do what it is purported to do.”
I used to feel that way as well. These days I am conflicted. I own a Glock Model 20. I also own three 357 magnum revolvers. The most powerful 357 rounds that I have fired (the 180 gr Buffalo Bore hardcast) are great rounds. I honesty think they could take down a big bear if need be. The revolvers do recoil quite a bit shooting those loads.
When shooting the most powerful rounds out of the Glock 20 (200 gr Underwood hardcast) The recoil is mild compared to the 357. So with the Glock I get a mild recoiling platform with a 15 round magazine. As you saw in the video the Energy from both rounds of hot ammo is nearly identical.
The Glock is also lighter to carry than my 4″ 357 and subjectively a bit handier. These days I am not so fast at reloading revolvers as I once was either. So while I am an old revolver guy and I love them, the Glock is usually my woods gun these days. Of course I don’t live or camp in Grizz country. However the handgun vs Bear shooting data leads me to believe that if you do your part the 10mm might be enough gun.
Just my take. My thoughts are worth what you paid for them. If I could afford one of those fancy Dan Wesson 10mm pistols or a good 45 1911 that I could trust to run the 450 SMC, then the issue would be settled for me.
On July 30, 2020 at 9:56 am, Haz said:
Per ballistic charts, .357 Mag fired out of a carbine barrel (such as lever action rifle) has about the same velocity and energy as .44 Mag fired out of a revolver. Of course, cartridge loads are variable, but that’s the general rule of thumb. So a lever action rifle + revolver both chambered in .357 Mag would be a powerful combo.
On July 30, 2020 at 11:05 am, Sisu said:
For those who do not already know, Dean Weingarten writing for AmmoLand.com has become something of an “expert” on bear attacks, collecting and analyzing a significant amount of anecdotal records. Below is one of his recent summaries. My take away when considering handguns in action against bears is “placement” is more important than caliber, projectile or load – of course, and “second, only” to the ability to bring the weapon to bear (that pun works pretty well).
https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/update-handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attack-93-cases-97-effective/#axzz6Th5nefLe
On July 30, 2020 at 12:22 pm, Ned2 said:
10mm is a great round for bear, even better when you’ve got 15 + 1 rounds at hand. More and more people are starting to carry 10mm up here in bear country.
10mm does have more energy at the muzzle, and most bear encounters that require shooting the bear happen at very close distances, so would that make it a more lethal round than the .45 at close range? Paging Paul Harrell.
On July 30, 2020 at 12:27 pm, Herschel Smith said:
@Ned2,
I imagine that 10mm is more lethal on big bear. What I don’t imagine is that it is more lethal than 450 SMC.
The mod is easy. Get a good 1911. Put a 22# spring in it.
On July 30, 2020 at 1:59 pm, Ned2 said:
@Herschel
How does 450 SMC compare to .454 Casull? (that’s been my caliber of choice since I’ve hunted up here in bear country; and I have both a revolver and Rossi lever action in the same caliber, which is convenient.)
Switching calibers over the last few years has been problematic for us because of the cost of ammo. I need to start reloading.
On July 30, 2020 at 3:10 pm, Just some guy said:
I noticed that the Glock 41 conversion feed-jammed on the second shot, while the revolver did not. With a S&W 686p you could get 7 shots of 357 for sure, and his 10mm get 15 shots maybe unless he has the ammo tested for reliability. As we all know, the revolver will care not of bullet shape. So if you prefer a bullet with a big fat metplat (I do) I’d avoid the semiauto. Well, you pays your money and you takes your chances..
On July 30, 2020 at 4:00 pm, George 1 said:
@ Just some guy: From my experience I think you are correct in that revolvers are generally more reliable than semi autos. A feeding issue with a particular bullet type or type of ammo should be worked out and tested in your gun before you use it for carry ammo.
It is always possible for semi autos (and even revolvers) to have a malfunction. People should practice the immediate action drills for semi autos and be able to perform them without thinking about it.
The other advantage of a revolver is the case in which a person is surprised and the bear (or other critter) puts them on the ground and the bear is on top of them. A person may have to put the weapon in contact with the critter. A semi auto can be taken out of battery in this situation and not be operable. The revolver will not have this issue.
On July 30, 2020 at 4:37 pm, Longbow said:
H used extremely light bullets in both cartridges. It would be expected that both would perform about the same. Indeed, marginal for any toothy critter in the woods, from badgers on up.
If he was to test the .357 Mag with a 180 grain bullet, and the 10mm with a 200 grain bullet, then we would see some real world performance.
This was a bullshit presentation.
On July 30, 2020 at 4:54 pm, George 1 said:
@Longbow. FWIW, The Buffalo Bore website shows my favorite 357 woods load (180 Gr. Hardcast) @ 675 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle. This from a 4″ 357. My favorite woods load for the 10MM, (the 200 gr hardcast) shows 694 ft lbs at the muzzle from a Glock 20 with the standard barrel.
So who knows. The figures are not going to be correct for every individual weapon. For my purposes the Glock 10mm serves me well.
On July 30, 2020 at 4:57 pm, George 1 said:
@Longbow. I meant to add that the 10mm data seems a bit high to me. And, Underwood does not show what they fired the load out of. I was told by a gun store owner that I know that they use Glock 20s to get the data. Who actually knows?
On July 30, 2020 at 6:17 pm, Herschel Smith said:
@Longbow,
I don’t think it’s a bullshit presentation. It’s just a presentation, whether you approve or not. If you want him to continue his investigation, write him and suggest different parameters.
Or do your own and drop it to YouTube.
On July 31, 2020 at 10:01 am, Longbow said:
Herschel, I used the wrong language. I allowed my thoughts to effuse unfiltered. I should have said, something like…
“Lighter bullets are less efficacious than heavy ones in Magnums and High pressure cartridges like the 10mm, especially on big toothy critters where I would prefer deep penetration.”
George 1, I load both the 180 hard cast in the .357 Mag, and a 200 grain in the 10mm. But I don’t charge $2 per round for them.