With Whom Is Law Enforcement Aligned?
BY Herschel Smith
3 years, 10 months ago
From Michael Yon.
The situation is clear. There is a clear sea change in Oregon — increasing numbers of people who are avoiding conflict, and those who are joining battle, are turning away from Back the Blue.
I saw this to a more limited extent in D.C., but now in Oregon the pattern is as clear. Iraq and Afghanistan veterans will see this and know exactly what is going on. As will Vietnam vets. Before my time, but they know this story, too.
This image came to me from a law enforcement friend who was in the Portland fighting on New Year’s night. If you know the source of this image, please connect me.
Note: the fact that more Proud Boys, Three Percenters, and other Patriot groups are starting to turn on some law enforcement, does NOT make them allies with ANTIFA. That’s not how this works.
There are so many issues here it’s impossible to fisk in a single post. Michigan patriots have turned on their government, and the law enforcement officer nearby in this instance was irrelevant to the circumstances, probably just there to protect the state worker (who probably called the Sheriff’s department for assistance because she was scared), and probably just wanted to get away from there as soon as possible. No LEO wants to be at a gun range with hundreds of shooters where owners are tearing up shutdown orders in front of state officials and LEOs and daring them to do anything about it, while calling them communists.
While allowing Antifa/BLM thugs to do whatever they wanted in various places in the U.S., the most worrisome thing for patriots is what the “justice system” would do to them if they fought back.
Here is the chain of command. Officers report to their chief, and their chief reports to elected officials. The elected officials determine policy.
LEOs the world-over will work ensure one, single, solitary thing: the continuance of the status quo and their chain of command. They will obey orders. They work to ensure continuity of government, not justice. I recall a video of the initial fall of Baghdad where the army turned over policing to the local IP literally as soon as they entered the city, and the videographer took footage of the IP beating up local looters in front of American troops.
We’ve discussed how LEOs aren’t required to protect anyone under rulings in Castle Rock versus Gonzales and Warren versus D.C. There is no need to rehearse that now.
The point is that even patriot groups are turning on LEOs where Michael is right now. We are entering a very dangerous time in the history of the republic.
Only an idiot wouldn’t see this.
On January 3, 2021 at 1:37 am, DogStar said:
Agree. Too many times we see LEO ignore antifa but handcuff the first conservative that fights back. The right is losing faith in LEO’s.
For what ever reason, they do not have the rights backs.
I get the dilemma. But they could do something. Send a message, like when NYPD turned their backs on De Blasio.
The chiefs should be ashamed. Only a matter of time before an antifa molitov hits a LEO and they are horribly burned.
On January 3, 2021 at 3:30 am, Georgiaboy61 said:
Re: “LEOs the world-over will work ensure one, single, solitary thing: the continuance of the status quo and their chain of command. They will obey orders.”
Some will, some won’t. Part of the reason Antifa-BLM-RevCom are so hostile to traditional LE is that they don’t control them. They can’t – not as long as some legacy police remain in the system, i.e., guys who at least somewhat adhere to the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
The communists don’t hate the police, they hate police that they don’t control. The hunch here is that the end game the communists are pursuing is to seize control of as many local and regional agencies as they can, in preparation for nationalizing them under federal control. That’s when they’ll convert LE agencies into whatever the Stasi, KGB, etc. are called these days.
In Islamic neighborhoods, they’ll be sharia patrols, as one already sees in some European cities. Otherwise, they’ll be political officers and ideological police, just as in the old USSR with the NKVD/KGB.
Re: “The point is that even patriot groups are turning on LEOs where Michael is right now. We are entering a very dangerous time in the history of the republic.”
The Schwerpunkt (focal point) of controlling LE as an entity is being their paymaster. The guys who control who gets paid and who gets retirement benefits. The outrage in USA, circa 20202, is that although the people – Joe/Jane Six-pack, the taxpayers – actually foot the bill, the folks at fed.gov and regional, state and local agencies actually control the flow of swag. Which means they are the ones giving marching orders, not ordinary folks. Which is why LE agencies are so divided at the moment.
Traditional Americans should not make the mistake again – provided there is an again – of delegating to someone else the paying of LE agencies. Want to maintain control of the cops? Then control the spigot through which flow their compensation and benefits, including retirement and pensions. That gives the proper carrot and stick to trad-Americans. We can appeal to their patriotism and sense of duty, but if that doesn’t work, we can hit where it hurts. And there’s always firing the ones who don’t play ball at all.
Oh, and as Law Professor Glenn Reynolds has suggested many times in his writings, it is time to end sovereign immunity for the police and LE. No more “get out of jail ‘free’ cards” for the folks in blue. Murder someone on the job – and you’ll get hammered, just like anyone else.
This is where team USA owes the guys/gals in blue a solid: We can’t simply sit back and allow the communists to control the apparatus of the criminal justice system. Yes, the population-at-large should be protected from predatory cops, but so should honest and good cops be protected from predatory DAs and politicians.
Despite the flow of anti-LE propaganda, there are still members of that community who believe in the old America. Our side ought to do its utmost to bring them into our ranks and on the side of justice and freedom and the fight for those things.
On January 3, 2021 at 5:46 am, Nosmo said:
I’ll agree with Georgiaboy61 (above) – Antifa doesn’t control LE, but neither do American citizens, the people signing their checks do. If one examines budget processes in the US, they’re a mess, and the higher up in government one goes the messier and less accountable the process.
There’s no direct link between Joe and Jane Citizen and what their city, county, state or federal government spends their tax money on, or how it’s spent, or in what proportion. J & J’s money goes into the black hole of The Great Government Machine, lip service to “needs, etc.” is given, and the process grinds on.
It’s a mistake to think the cops are “on our side” no matter which side you’re referring to, and that extends to the military as well. That oath they took? Words. And words don’t buy dinner or pay the mortgage. Will some honor that oath? Yes. Which ones? Who the Hell knows? They all wear the same outfits so it’s impossible to tell at 400 meters who the good guys are, even at 12X.
On January 3, 2021 at 6:40 am, WiscoDave said:
More from OR
https://mobile.twitter.com/FordFischer/status/1345414150017740800
On January 3, 2021 at 8:42 am, Mark Matis said:
LEOs in this country are Republicans. ROVE Republicans. With all the character traits of same:
1. No morals
2. No principles
3. No scruples
4 No honor
They will do WHATEVER they are told, as long as that paycheck keeps comin’ in. And Your Betters understand that, and will grant them authority to “requisition” whatever they need when things go south.
The exceptions to this are very few and far between!!!
On January 3, 2021 at 10:01 am, Longbow said:
Mark Matis said,
“They will do WHATEVER they are told, as long as that paycheck keeps comin’ in.”
Bingo.
Dudley Do-Right was unavailable for comment.
On January 3, 2021 at 10:23 am, Lan said:
I get tired of the comments about there being good cops. It that were the case these good cops would be cuffing colleagues, commanders, judges and mayors across the county. They don’t so they are ALL guilty of corruption by association. Screw them all. If you are a cop, look in the mirror asshole.
On January 3, 2021 at 10:33 am, bob sykes said:
I hope you understand that this applies in spades to the military. In 1932, Gen. MacArthur lead US infantry to clear out the Bonus Army demonstrators seeking early payment on their WW I military service bonds. America’s current military will happily gun down Americans demonstrating against Biden, if he tells them to do so.
On January 3, 2021 at 10:33 am, Bill Buppert said:
The police are the standing army the Anti-Federalists warned us about. The evil trifecta of qualified immunity, police unions and “officer safety” allow them to be nothing more than political muscle to do what they are told.
Hmmm…why are tens of thousands of rape kits untested? No profit in prosecution. Certainly not the case with traffic tickets.
Why wouldn’t the police align with Antifa and the BLM? They are advocating for a maximum state which is the largest employer and user of police forces and police state ambition. The myth of cops being “right wing” is false and ancient. What maximum or communist state in human history has survived without police and their informant armies. Answer: none. American policing has fetishized the Nuremberg Defense as the sacred sinew and DNA of every wrong thing it does. A sacred totem of “Befehl ist Befehl…”
There is a golden hour in all insurgencies in which the occupier (counter insurgent) is hated just as much as the insurgent but when that passes and the latter gains in legitimacy and popularity, the insurgency will last a very long time at a slow burn or a raging blaze. There are multiple insurgencies at work in the US now and right leaning insurgency is just now starting to gain traction.
Newton’s Third Law is a serial killer.
On January 3, 2021 at 10:38 am, Mike said:
If I wanted to establish complete control over LE, I would work to get loyalists elected to positions of critical decision making such as DAs, mayors, union reps, then put extreme pressure on the Leo rank and file, making their professional lives miserable, destroying trust in the system and faith in the future. The standup, traditionalist Leos will retire, find other jobs, or just hunker down and make no waves, while the political sleaze will worm their way into the sphere of influence of the elected power brokers. Law and honest will disappear while corruption and cronyism will dominate. After a bit of churn, LE will be nothing more then the muscle of the politically connected.
IMHO, defund the police isn’t about justice or renewing the social contract. It is about forcing out the last of the ‘good ones’.
On January 3, 2021 at 10:39 am, X said:
Cops are like dogs. They are loyal to whoever feeds them. If their masters tell them to stand down in the face of communists, they will. If their masters tell them to arrest patriots on trumped-up felony charges that could get them 80 years, they will.
There may be individual beat cops out there who will turn a blind eye toward patriot protests or shirk their duty when it comes to enforcing stuff like gun laws, but only because they are lazy, or fear not being able to collect their paycheck and their sweet pension if things get sideways. Cops are purely self-centered, not idealistic.
On January 3, 2021 at 10:47 am, Steady Steve said:
Police have gotten “Only Ones” status, “qualified immunity”, and usually cover for each other. Not to mention that management usually covers up their misdeeds. Too many of them think of themselves as above regular citizens. They’ve made their bed. All police, including State Police should be abolished. Local law enforcement should only consist of elected Sheriffs. That way the people keep control. At the Federal level the FBI and any 3 letter department law enforcement should be abolished. They can make do with facility security only.
On January 3, 2021 at 11:02 am, Dirk said:
LEO”s are at a cross roads, least we forget their paramilitary. Any ex military here, remember not following orders? Didn’t think so.
I’m not saying it’s right, these guys took an oath to protect the constitution, We The People,,,,,, not their dildo leaders. I was in Portland late summer, helping an old friend watch his place. “Word was someone in city hall had dumped all the poopoos addresses to the left” I don’t know if it was true or not, but nobody showed up at Daves while we were there.
Justice Scallia, back in the late eighties early nineties , ” I think” wrote the SCOTUS, definition of Law Enforcements job description, went something like this.
1. Investigate crimes.
2. Arrest those responsible for those crimes.
3. Protect the Infastructure.
Im my mind the first two are legit, I have a boner regarding number three, fuck that shit. Protect Govt? What happens to Protect and Serve, caring for We The People.
I’d been a cop for roughly twelve plus years, and this bullshit changed everything for the rest of my career. Fuck those lying thieving Govt, self serving lollipops.
Was also about the time I saw SWAT taking a bigger roll in search warrants, based on a “Matrix” which was easily minipulated. Was a dope cop then, my associates all saw the downside to bringing SWAT with us, on anything.
I saw us going from law enforcement, to the more paramilitary side, lil tin soldiers, hut hut hut. Georgia-boy’s view is realistic. ‘Mathis, well haters gotta hate.! I’m sure he has a valid reason for his hatred.
Here’s the thing, if you live a reasonable life, apply common sense, you will never talk to the police, unless you choose to. Act like a retard, run your soup koolers, your in for a rough ride. Do stupid shit, win stupid prizes.
Life is about choices. If shits getting blurred in your area, get out, or stay and suffer the consequences. I pray for you guys in the big cities, what shit shows.
Lastly, ive witnessed Syrians, or other northern euro men calling the shots at these ANTIFA gigs. Can’t say all of em, but my observation was crystal clear. These shot callers were not from America, their clothing, their posture, their haircuts, the cigs they smoked, these men, hated this place, relished in doing destruction, and using dumb ass white people to do it.
Master at blending in, yet they stand out in odd and unusual ways. Anybody who’s been their would recognize the sub conscious tells.
Dirt
On January 3, 2021 at 11:05 am, Retired said:
What did the Left say back in the Sixties?
“Police represent the values of the ruling class and oppress the weak and marginalized.”
So it comes as no surprise that in time the police will represent the new ruling class and oppress the winners in the middle class—Chittum’s “civilian military.”
I called this scenario as soon as Antifa started throwing Molotov cocktails. The Left doesn’t want to disband LE, they want it reimaged to clamp down on libertarians.
On January 3, 2021 at 11:07 am, DingDong said:
Approaching 30 years as a Peace Officer. My father retired as a Peace Officer. He had been shot trying to arrest a bad man many years ago and he almost died as a result.
Since then he has had decades of health problems from his injuries. He never sued anybody and he has played through a lot of pain since then. My dad has to be admitted to a hospital at least two or three times a year as a result of his injuries from that gun shot wound.My brother is a retired Peace Officer, my cousin has 26 years as a Peace Officer and my Uncle died of cancer with almost 20 years in as a Peace Officer. I think I have a little bit of insight on this from the police prospective.
Generally speaking the police are not the enemies of free people. Very large police departments are fucked up. Departments from about 50 to 2 or 3 officers are generally ok.
You see with the smaller departments there are generally two or three older guys that will control things weather they are the chief of police or not, it will not matter. The veteran officers for the most part will try to keep a lid on all things and they will try to make sure the general public will not be messed with.
The veteran officers for the most part respect the Constitution, they respect the people they come into contact with and they will not, generally speaking let bad things happen to people that they or the younger officers come into contact with.
The older officers have to much to lose, weather it be their pensions, freedom or their reputations. Most all of us live locally, we have established roots and we have family in the area. We don’t want to cause any problems and we actually want to help as best we can(often times nobody is happy with the outcome but we do what we can within the law to solve whatever problem we are dealing with).
Most police officers are not corrupt but some are. Usually just about the entire force is disgusted with the corrupt officers and they do what they can to minimize their damage but often times the corrupt officer stays on the force due to the inactions or spineless leadership of the command staff(mainly the Chief of Police or Sheriff or the local government or a combination of both).
I’m guessing what most of you want to know is what do Peace Officers think about the Second Amendment. Well most of us strongly support it, especially your older officers in smaller police departments.
Many of us are military veterans. If gun confiscation orders were given many of us would not enforce them.
To be honest many older officers in smaller departments are happy just driving around their town not getting shot at, not getting punched at and not getting screamed at.
By the way most officers have a mental list of 5 people they would like to shoot in the head. Trust me none of you are on the list. The same people you want to shoot are the same ones we want to shoot.
On January 3, 2021 at 11:08 am, Mack The Knife said:
Just remember this corollary. As long as you have the police, you have a police state. No way around it & forget about your constitutional rights & all the other bullshit about living in a free country. You don’t & never really did. By the way, if nothing is done about the status quo, I all can say is it’s going to get worse.
On January 3, 2021 at 11:25 am, Retired said:
So, we talk about fighting.
When?
After Jan 20 Biden directs the military to search and destroy all of us.
When?
On January 3, 2021 at 12:03 pm, Laughing Swordfish said:
Corrupted, infiltrated, destroyed, as part of the Fundamental Transformation.
Apparatchiks and nomenklatura infest the justice system at every level above the poleeces courtesy of Soros and Bathhouse Barry.
They aren’t coming to save any one and they won’t be bothering you.
If you are like the cat reading the newspaper meme.
On January 3, 2021 at 12:08 pm, Laughing Swordfish said:
@ Retired,
You’ll know and regarding the military with what the National Guard?
Have you seen the hilarious NG proud pics of fat soft pounds of chewed bubble gum training with boxes of chicken and pizza?
Armies are trained to fight other armies in ideal conditions with always on time supply chains.
It will be outsourced (UN) or the BLM/Antifa will become the USPF (United States Police Force). We’re all South Africans now.
Be not afraid and don’t ever adopt the I’m too old defeatism.
You can load magazines or pass ammo and supplies down a trench or look out on recon and report what you see.
Go out fighting and standing up to make your ancestors in Valhalla proud.
On January 3, 2021 at 12:38 pm, Phelps said:
Meaning that, in specific situations, the police ARE the enemies of the people, by your own phrasing.
Like now.
And so do the “not corrupt” officers.
That makes you ALL oathbreakers.
On January 3, 2021 at 12:48 pm, Retired said:
@Laughing Swordfish
Thanks for a reply.
Their side has me convinced that our side must be eliminated and that they have generals who agree. Their side also has no problem with technical difficulties like the Constitution, so Joe (and Kamela for sure) would not hesitate to use military force, and explains why I entered forums begging for a leader to direct our side to make citizens’ arrests, face Antifa with arms, etc., before Trump leaves office.
The festivities should have started already. What were we waiting for?
Barr?
The next election?
SCOTUS?
I am admittedly not too bright, but my instincts said “do it now while we had some degree of protection in DC.”
Now, we have a steeper uphill climb.
My ass hurts just to walk, but that new 20 pound plate carrier will have to do. God, grant me the good fortune to inflict heavy casualties before my ticket is up.
On January 3, 2021 at 1:31 pm, Lucretia Clinton said:
LE will, in most cases, follow sociopathic management orders to pick the lowest hanging fruit to generate “stats”. The easiest to pick are law abiding citizens because they will follow previous accepted protocols of – do what the poleese says to do- this LE focus “Schwerpunkt” is in direct conflict to a standard criminal investigation format of, identify the “criminal”, arrest the criminal, shut down the criminal operation. The confounding conflict is that the LE obviously knows the right thing to do, but they need to keep their job (income). And while the majority of LE management won’t hesitate to throw their own families under the bus, street level LE have to balance family security/job security/orders from above, in their day to day ops. LE with tenure and cajones will do the right thing. To address approaching dates, sociopathic management will attempt to apply other sociopath LE to the problem, who don’t have tenure, or family in the equation. So get to know your local LE, as they are part of your community. If you know them, where they live, and their families…at worst, they will do nothing. At best, they will become an integral part of team good guy.
On January 3, 2021 at 1:51 pm, Wilson said:
It will be like Venezuela. Chavez was losing control so he ordered the local police to crack down on people. Police obeyed. Problem was the cops were cracking down on their neighbors who started showing up at the cops houses, rocks through windows, harassing and threatening cops wives kids parents. Local cops just quit showing up for work. Their family was worth more than a pay check.
Chavez then turned to the army and his personal gangs. In the USA If the Democrats have the govt that will be federal cops, military, some national guard, Antifa/blm/etc.
On January 3, 2021 at 2:49 pm, ambiguousfrog said:
@Wilson
“In the USA If the Democrats have the govt that will be federal cops, military, some national guard, Antifa/blm/etc”
Sounds like a target rich environment.
On January 3, 2021 at 3:06 pm, Ned2 said:
@Wilson,
Yes, like Venezuela, but we have guns.
I predict most cops getting shot and killed in the Act 1 phase of the insurgency. Being in a small town won’t help you. If you’re enacting bullshit orders, you’re done.
As with active military, if you’re a cop you might want to find another line of work right now. You’ll probably make more money anyway.
On January 3, 2021 at 4:20 pm, Okanogan Offgrid said:
@ DingDong, I sure get tired of people telling me “most cops are good” and expecting me to believe it.
I was there, witnessed it with my own eyes and ears, when a Sergeant named Gene Davis, with the Okanogan County Sheriff Dept (Blackshirts) threatened to beat up a 57 year old woman who is in rather poor health and not even half his size.
The words that lifelong civilian chose to use to my neighbor, friend and Sister Veteran, were “I’ll come back and turn into the Hulk on you. You don’t want to see how mean I can get.” Over and over, he used the words “I’ll turn into the Hulk on you” so many times I finally asked him if he turned green. That’s when he looked at me with an expression of almost out of control rage and said “No, it’s more RED.” At that point another deputy (Blackshirt) told me it was time to leave and escorted me to my car.
It’s bad enough that someone like that got hired, retained and promoted to Sergeant, but when I tried to get copies of body cam recordings to support a complaint I wanted to file, I found out our Sheriff won’t issue that inexpensive and readily available technology that would prove how his blackshirt thugs actually treat people.
If the Sheriff doesn’t trust his own deputies enough to issue body cams, I’m certainly not going to trust them for even one moment.
BTW, they don’t wear blue here. They don’t wear the traditional tan or green of Sheriff Departments of the past. They wear Black like they are trying to look like members of an SS Panzer Division or something.
On January 3, 2021 at 4:48 pm, Bones said:
Well, here goes. (sigh)
I’m a retired military reservist, and a retired Federal agent. I hear and read comments about cops and who’s side they’ll be on when spicy time comes. Y’all have many opinions and anecdotes about cops. There are many out there who are assholes and badge heavy jerks who should never have any sort of authority.
But what about your specific town, county, etc…? Cops generally, have nothing to do with where you are or will be, specifically.
When I went through the SF Q Course, I remember the NCO playing the role of the guerrilla chief giving us new guys pearls of wisdom. One of them was “You gotta love ’em to subvert ’em.” I liked it, it sounded pretty hard core and cynical.
After some time in Group, I learned what he was trying to pass along. In order to get people to follow your lead, you have to get to know, yes, and even to love them. That’s how SF teams go to foreign lands and build armies from people of foreign cultures.
People on the intertubes talk about the coming unpleasantness, but who in your area can you count on among LE? How do you find out? To just make a general statement about LE, means nothing about your situation.
Find out. Does your department have a Reserve program? A volunteer program? Can you ride along? Try it. You may find allies among those who are LE. Listen and evaluate. Where are they coming from? In the end, who’s side will they be on? This is critical.
Most street cops hate the city or county elected people… and especially in the bigger towns and counties. What do you think the attitude toward the politicians is among the rank and file in Chicago? New York? What’s the attitude in your town?
I know most all the cops in my town, and many of the Sheriff’s guys. I know, personally, the Chief and Sheriff. I know which way they will go. Do you?
You can have allies or enemies in LE. Which do you have? Which do you want?
Here endeth the lesson.
On January 3, 2021 at 5:03 pm, Aesop said:
Your take on LE is absolutely correct, but it’s only the first chapter in the story.
The Enemy Always Gets A Vote.
That would be all of us, in this instance, as well as the actual criminal Usual Suspects.
And then OODA loops adjust what they will do, and what they won’t do.
You’re going to see a lot more Sgt. Schultzes than you will Dirty Harrys as this progresses, because the hardest chargers don’t live to collect their pensions.
Ask the police in Mexico or anywhere else. They’ll only be as frisky as they have to be to not get fired. And if the state turns up the screws on them, they squeeze more of what they have to switching sides, or finding other employment, while the fanatics they prefer rise higher, and accelerate radicalizing the population against them even harder.
I think of it like a physics equation: you can boil the water faster, but you get more steam, and have less water left. Someone’s going to get burned.
There’s no reason to think LE will defect wholesale en masse, like they never do, and they generally won’t be friendly to anyone not themselves. But they can barely hold the line now in most places, with general full support.
That equation’s about to have a sea change.
When everyplace and nearly every neighborhood coast to coast becomes like policing South Central L.A., South Chicongo, Harlem, etc., 24/7/365, they don’t have the manpower or resources anywhere, they’re going to be in quite a pickle, and it’s going to dawn on them like birth pangs. It only gets worse for them once the range goes hot not only in both directions, but from all directions.
Looking forward, it’s a great career field to be retired from, in the next 5 minutes, and in the long run, I don’t think they’re going to be relevant to the discussion for very long, as currently constituted. They’re simply not built for this.
And at a certain point, they’re going to become more of a resupply point for the opposition than an operating force, from simple mathematics. No one can live Rorke’s Drift and the Alamo every day, endlessly. And they won’t.
What happens after that moment is what concerns me more.
The rule of thumb is that shadow governments, replicating all necessary government functions, must be formed beforehand, to prevent Bracken’s Bosnia X Rwanda scenario. (The whacktards who think Anarchy works ever, I leave to the harsh contrary judgement of 6000 years of recorded human history.)
On January 3, 2021 at 5:40 pm, Herschel Smith said:
@Aesop,
“The whacktards who think Anarchy works ever, I leave to the harsh contrary judgement of 6000 years of recorded human history.”
Yea, anarchy works, but only for a short period of time to accomplish its intended purpose, war. Someone will always be at the helm driving the boat, as it were, eventually. Anarchy is civil war, or at least, low grade to medium insurrection. It cannot last forever by its very nature and definition.
That’s why I call (and categorize myself) as a Christian libertarian. Not a communist, not a democrat, not even a republican or libertarian. I’d rather whomever is in charge have the lightest hand, and I assess that to be Christian libertarianism.
For those who disagree, I can defend my position all the way back to the Council of Nicea at 325 A.D., and then move forward from there. See R. J. Rushdoony, “The One and the Many: Studies in the Philosophy of Order and Ultimacy.”
On January 3, 2021 at 7:57 pm, George 1 said:
I hope that the current and former LEO commenters here are correct. I hope many of the cops will not enforce the unconstitutional edits that will come along with the spreading violence and oppression we are sure to see. However I see no evidence of that happening on a large scale.
I think we can count on LEOs following their orders no matter how immoral, ungodly or unconstitutional those orders are. In todays world the typical LEO I speak to is buying into the, “white supremacist right winger militia people are the biggest threat the country faces”, meme completely. Most of the younger LEOs I talk to are just not that bright and they can’t filter out the propaganda they are being fed. That goes for much of the general population as well.
On January 3, 2021 at 8:41 pm, Longbow said:
Ding Dong said,
“… the corrupt officer stays on the force due to the inactions or spineless…”
Allow me to help: The corrupt officer stays on the force because his peers cover for him. They never get around to taking him into the locker room and giving him some wall to wall counseling and vigorously encouraging him to find another line of work. The one or two bad apples do their dirty deeds and the “vast majority” stand around NOT stopping them.
Watch the video of Officer Brailsford murdering Daniel Shaver. Tell me his buddy couldn’t have said “Hey look, he’s prone, sacred to death… he’s pissing himself now… let me go over and hook him up. You just keep him covered.”
Tell me Eric Scott HAD to be murdered at Summerlin COSTCO, in North Las Vegas. Not one of the “vast majority” came forward and told the truth. Not one.
Don’t give us the old song and dance, “You don’t know how it is… over worked… under paid… not appreciated… thin blue line… and kryptonite!”
Just clean the shit out of your own nest.
But hey, you know what? Once Biden is fraudulently inaugurated, none of this matters. The mask comes off. Bullying and Thuggery become the normal order of business. You and your buddies won’t have to pretend any more.
On January 3, 2021 at 10:26 pm, CPB said:
“There are more than 800,000 sworn law enforcement officers now serving in the United States, which is the highest figure ever. About 12 percent of those are female.” I like those odds….
On January 3, 2021 at 10:51 pm, Georgiaboy61 said:
Re:”What happens after that moment is what concerns me more.”
The rule of thumb is that shadow governments, replicating all necessary government functions, must be formed beforehand, to prevent Bracken’s Bosnia X Rwanda scenario. (The whacktards who think Anarchy works ever, I leave to the harsh contrary judgement of 6000 years of recorded human history.)”
Some in this comment stream may think me not hard-enough on the police. It isn’t that I am a fan of the police or against them, for that matter – it is that I want very badly not to jump from the frying pan into the fire. The folks saying “abolish the police” seem to believe that whatever comes after that will be better, or at least no worse, than the present status quo. But what if they’re wrong – what if things get worse? Much, much worse?
Nature, you see, abhors a vacuum, and if LE organizations disappear, something or someone will emerge to fill that space.
I agree with those Founders who believed government to be a necessary evil, one whose powers should be restrained by as many means as possible. Proponents of anarchy seem to believe that if the cops disappear, ordinary folks will be able to take over the jobs now done by the criminal justice system. Maybe so, maybe not. Perhaps I ought to have more faith in my fellow humans.
History, however, suggests something darker: That in the absence of civil soceity and ordered liberty, existence tends to become Hobbsian very quickly, where in the strong rule the weak (the law of the jungle) and the devil takes the hindmost. If that state of affairs represents where we’re headed, I don’t see how that is an improvement over the flawed system we have now. Sometimes, better the devil you know, than the one you don’t – as the old proverb says.
In other words, don’t jump out of the frying pan and into the fire….
As for the various dilemmas above, I don’t have any easy answers. I don’t think anyone does. Herschel, I’ll be on the lookout for R. J. Rushdoony…. his work sounds intriguing.
On January 3, 2021 at 11:02 pm, Sheepdog said:
Too bad they didn’t stick to keeping the peace, might’ve had more support from the tax payers they prey upon…
On January 4, 2021 at 12:15 am, Name (required) said:
In places where BLM and Antifa flourish, the cops work for the same government that funds and encourages BLM and Antifa.
In places where BLM and Antifa are not encouraged, the cops work for the government, and definitely not for you.
The cops are not your friends at best; they are your enemy at worst. “Defund the police” isn’t really such a bad idea.
On January 4, 2021 at 6:55 am, Hudson H Luce said:
“Proponents of anarchy seem to believe that if the cops disappear, ordinary folks will be able to take over the jobs now done by the criminal justice system. Maybe so, maybe not. Perhaps I ought to have more faith in my fellow humans. History, however, suggests something darker: That in the absence of civil society and ordered liberty, existence tends to become Hobbesian very quickly, where in the strong rule the weak (the law of the jungle) and the devil takes the hindmost.”
It depends on where you’re at, and the kind of people who live there. In New Orleans during Katrina, where most of the cops ran away, it did become pretty Hobbesian – and cops turned into armed robbers and murderers. In other places, citizens banded together and kept the peace – even checking up and seeing who was sick, who needed help, and so forth. Leaders naturally arose, things got done, looters got dispensed with, and society worked. It was self-organization, and mutual aid, and it worked, people didn’t need bureaucrats to tell them what to do, they banded together, figured out what needed to be done, and did it. Then the “authorities” moved in and screwed things up royally, and in so doing, managed to do quite well for themselves while everyone else sucked hind tit. Repeat this sequence for nearly every natural disaster, where you don’t have an excess of dependent people, and “law enforcement” runs away.
Back before the 1880s or so, most places didn’t have police, it was the duty of citizens to go out and enforce the laws. Of course, there weren’t many laws, they were few and well-known, and so ignorance of the law was no excuse. Back then, the laws of the State of Kansas filled an inch-thick book. Somehow, we managed to survive the first 100 years without police like we have today. In fact, that was the case for nearly every small town up until the 1930s, you might have a town marshal, or the county sheriff, and that was about it. Most people had guns, a lot of crime didn’t get committed because of this. Sheriff’s posses didn’t get paid for their work or for risking their lives, it was part of their duty as a citizen. So it’s possible to live without police – or very much of them – and live in a pretty peaceful place.
The cops now are the “select militias” the Founders warned against, especially with the militarization of police departments. They exist primarily to protect and serve the government and have no legal duty to protect and serve individuals citizens or groups thereof, even though it may be the case that they do so, even at the cost of their lives. But it is not a legal duty: https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again – it’s entirely discretionary. If they decide to run away, that’s a choice which will incur no legal liability for them. So the true situation now is the same as when there are no police – it’s up to the individual to provide for his or her own safety from crime, and the same can be said for groups of individuals. And, in fact, police can hinder or prevent this from happening, resulting in an inevitable increase in crime. The police end up protecting and serving criminals. And this has been seen in numerous places this last year. So instead of dealing with just armed criminals, you’re dealing with armed criminals, and armed groups operating with official sanction.
As for any agent of the state being your friend, I’d advise great caution – in general, don’t talk with them if they initiate the conversation and start asking questions – and *never* consent to a search. And I’ve represented victims of crime who have been charged with crimes, and the perpetrator allowed to walk free.
As for defunding the police, I’d choose other routes, such as wiping out qualified immunity by ordinance, legislatively overturning the public duty doctrine and creating a legal duty to protect and serve individual citizens and groups, de-recognizing police unions and not renewing union contracts – and see which officers show up for work. My suspicion would be that it would weed out a considerable amount of chaff, the resultant department would need less in the way of funding.
On January 4, 2021 at 10:29 pm, Sisu said:
The range of comments speaks to the depth of the “credibility gap” LE is suffering; and the above is only a fraction of the uncertainty. I believe missing (admittedly I did not read word for word the longer comments) is –
i) State, large cities / municipalities PDs are run by their unions; the union bosses strike deals with the politicians to make the later look good while keeping “sworn officers” safe – hence “quality of life” enforcement and arrests of non (less likely) violent “conservatives” vs “drug crazed”, “nothing to lose” BLMr’s / Antifas and “gang banging” drug syndicates;
ii) the “job” is mostly an “impossible one” given its scope and “rules of engagement”; not to mention most LEs are inadequately trained in “the Constitution and the law” with limited “life experience/understanding” – the focus is on tactics and staying safe;
iii) unless a smaller community there is little chance of “knowing your patrol officers”. And, even then too many (as noted above) become “badge heavy” out of boredom and alienate youth of the community and outsiders. Also too many local politicians and judges see “fines” as easy supplemental revenue stream;
iv) in general LE are grossly over compensated (when taking into account the value of benefits, overtime, compensated absences, retirement pension and benefits; 20 yrs to full retirement) – I am unimpressed by all the complaints to my statement; work in private sector in your community and then tell us all how under compensated you all are. This misunderstanding as to how well compensated they are leads too many LEs to be “entitled” and “work rule oriented”. …
v) “Qualified immunity” is a travesty: “absolute power corrupts absolutely”. …
I could go on … But in summary the problems of LE relations with the public are systemic, based on miscommunications, misunderstandings, unreasonable expectations, … and a “we – them” mentality which has been fostered by the police unions, movies and TV since the beginning of professional police forces in the 1800s.
If ever approached by the police think twice before you speak – the individual officer may just be looking for some easy OT and to get off the street.
When police unions and national associations start advocating to protect law abiding citizen’s Second Amendment protections and vocally challenging “unlawful laws and administrative enforcement actions” I reassess; otherwise all I see is corroborating incidents. … Clearly anecdotes such as the Portland police inaction and increasing incidents re: enforcement of CoVid restrictions are further undermining credibility of police across the country, while making taxpayers wonder “what are we paying for ?”.
On January 5, 2021 at 11:34 am, Ed Mackin said:
Has everyone forgot Katrina? This is how it will work: Local cops can’t always be depended on to follow orders for gun confiscation and unconstitutional acts, especially in cities with less than 100k population. That’s why they sent the Oklahoma National Guard to New Orleans, La. Young kids are more likely to follow illegal orders than local police. Crash the economy where young Guardsman see all their peers unemployed and losing the doublewide and the 3/4 ton 4×4 to the repo man… and they’ll follow any and all orders. Between a paycheck and patriotism, in a tough economy – take a guess which one wins. Katrina showed the way. Don’t forget it. And the worse the economy gets, the more likely even local cops will fold.