308 Versus 223 At 1090 Yards
BY Herschel Smith
3 years, 2 months ago
The post title is correct. That’s good shooting by both of them.
Of course, she’s shooting a very nice 223 rifle (SAKO) with a very long barrel (24″) along with a heavy bullet (80.5 grain Berger). But still, that’s good shooting and a great job of taking the 223 out that far.
On October 26, 2021 at 1:06 am, Chris said:
20” on either will get that distance and abit more. Predictably if your good in wind.
Long tubes, for my taste.
They were gettin it though.
Love it.
Thats…A Damn Good Day!!
On October 26, 2021 at 5:36 am, Russell G. said:
Didn’t watch (UTube ban) but anyone that goes 1000 has got it nailed–break out the cornnuts and suds. You got it on the third sentence, and SAKO has been doing it for a long, long time. Take your regular ’41 Ishy MN 91/30 and match it against a beefy stock’d Fin 28/30 with a SAKO “D” barrel (.308) at, say, 250 with iron’s and the same basic powder load. You’ll see why Simo had an edge on the “Bunny Hoppers”. There’s just something about those barrels. Could be a lot of voodoo or magic going down to the trigger finger, but it works.
On October 26, 2021 at 12:20 pm, ExpatNJ said:
Thank you Capt for this video. It is good shooting. May I also suggest this:
“7.62 NATO is amazingly accurate. Mel Tappan (the survivalist gun guru) has reported 100-yard 3-shot groups as small as 3/8 inch. In skilled hands has effective range 1,000 yards, about half a mile. 7.62 NATO is powerful enough to penetrate trees, car bodies, and brick walls with enough energy left over to do lethal damage to an attacker on the far side. 5.56mm is smaller, lighter, less powerful, and less accurate. Effective range 450 yards, but there is question about the man-stopping qualities beyond 150 yards. The guy on the far side of the tree will be relatively safe.” [abridged by ExpatNJ]
Clayton, Bruce D. Ph.D.
“Life After Doomsday: A Survivalist Guide to Nuclear War and Other Major Disasters”
NewYork: DialPress, 1980. 185p. UF767. C621980.
PS. I own an original paper-back copy of Clayton’s book from when it was first published. I still regard it as one of – if not THE – premier source for info on prepping, survival, and SHTF. Yes, I am partial. For those who wish to read it for yourself, it is available freely now, on-line as a .pdf, from various sources. Considering the times, it might be a good idea to download a copy now.
On October 26, 2021 at 12:51 pm, Herschel Smith said:
@Expat,
Then again, Travis Haley was shooting enemy fighters at 600 meters with success in al Najaf.
But we’re not Travis Haley. At least, I know I’m not.
On October 26, 2021 at 3:20 pm, Elon Muskox said:
Sticking to numbers and components from the video, my QuickLoad tells me it would have taken 5000 psi over SAAMI max for .223 Rem to get that 80-gr bullet to 2800 fps. I could get it down to 3000 over if I used a seating depth of just 0.10″, which isn’t very practical.
It doesn’t look like the had to strain but I’m surprised he didn’t need a cheater bar to lift the bolt.
The performance numbers on the .308, OTOH, are close to the 175-gr FGMM, so the .308 load is pretty middling. QL says AA2208 would do it with more than 4000 psi to spare to SAAMI max.
On October 26, 2021 at 9:48 pm, Georgiaboy61 said:
Service rifle competitors have been using AR15s with heavy-for-caliber bullets (75+ grains) for some years now to sweep the field at CMP matches, including the slow-fire stage at 1000 yards. Prior to that time, it had been the domain of M-1 Garand and then M-14/M1A rifles. Glen Zediker, one of these competitors, even wrote a book about the new kid on the block, entitled “The Competitive AR15: The Mouse that Roared” (1995).
ARs are inherently accurate rifles for a number of reasons, but as Zediker notes, it wasn’t the rifles that delayed their ascendance but the lack of suitable LR match projectiles of 75, 80 or more grains, capable of remaining supersonic to 1000 yards and performing well-enough in the wind to displace the older, more-established designs and their loads.
Loads of 80 grains or more exceed overall length for use in a standard AR15 magazine, which means they have to be loaded singly, but since the LR stages are done slow-fire prone, it isn’t an issue to load each round individually.
The heavy-for-caliber .224-caliber loads work, but you’d better have your wind game down-pat, because even a projectile that heavy is still substantially lighter than the typical fare used in a .30-caliber service rifle, or for that matter, one rebarreled in 6.5-08 or the like – and will get blown around pretty good by the wind.
On October 26, 2021 at 10:00 pm, Georgiaboy61 said:
Vis-a-vis long-range performance, for years one of the issues pertaining to .308-caliber projectiles commonly available on the market, including match-grade offerings, was their light-for-caliber selection. Noted ballistician, aeronautical engineer, and owner of Applied Ballistics, Bryan Litz, has written and spoken extensively on the issue – and is one of the industry leaders doing something about it with his line of Berger bullets (he is chief ballistician for Berger).
Seasoned reloaders and others into this arcane science know that in .308-caliber (7.62mm) projectiles, the B.C. (ballistic coefficient) numbers don’t start to get noticeably good until one hits 190-200 grains or more. This is why many service rifle competitors use 190-grain loads for the longer-range stages, even though the load is approaching the limits of short-action .308 case. By the time one gets into the really juicy B.C. values, you are at 210-grains or more, and probably looking at a long-action case like 30-06, 300 Win-Mag, or the like and not a short-action chambering.
But if you can tolerate the recoil, and have a rifle with the correct twist barrel, some of these projectiles are superb long-range performers. Which is one reason why the U.S. adopted a three-tiered classification system some years ago for their precision/sniping weapons, namely Light, Medium, and Heavy designations.
Light – Up to and including .308 Winchester/7.62×51 NATO
Medium – Inclusive of chamberings between .308 on the low end, the .50BMG on the upper end, including 300 Win-Mag, 338 LM, etc.
Heavy – .50 BMG and heavier, primarily anti-material weapons
Competition shooters, however, needn’t worry about things like throw weigh and terminal performance as soldiers do. As long as their load punches paper or rings steel as it is supposed to do and is accurate and consistent, they’re happy. Which is why more and more of the PRS champs these days run 6.5mm (.264-caliber) or 6mm (.243-caliber) set-ups. Highly-accurate, low recoil, excellent precision.