45-70 Versus 30-30
BY Herschel Smith
2 years, 8 months ago
This cartridge became available in 1895 in Winchester’s Model 1894 lever action rifle. It was America’s first sporting cartridge to be loaded with smokeless powder and was originally loaded with a 160-grain bullet and 30 grains of powder. This produced a muzzle velocity of about 1950 fps. The cartridge got its name from its .30-caliber (.308-inch) bullet and the 30 grains of powder that fueled it. Since then, the cartridge has been chambered in a wide range of rifles but gained its fame and popularity in the 94 and the Marlin 336.
When it comes to modern .30-30 ballistics, things are a bit improved today. The most common loading is a 150-grain bullet at an advertised 2390 fps. However, for common 20-inch barreled traditional lever guns, real muzzle velocities are closer to 2300 fps. This is a powerful combination and has been used effectively on everything from feral hogs all the way up to moose. You can also get 125 and 170-grain loads, but neither offer any practical advantage over 150-grain loadings, especially the excellent 150-grain Federal HammerDown, which has been specifically tuned for lever guns.
However, there is another option. Hornady offers 140- and 160-grain LEVERevolution loads. What sets these apart is that they utilize a spitzer instead of a round nose bullet. Round nose bullets have always been required in tube fed lever guns, but the soft rubber FlexTip used by Hornady makes these pointy bullets safe in the magazine tube. With the LEVERevolution ammunition the .30-30 has a 13% flatter trajectory and retains about 6% more energy. Regardless the loading, a traditional 30-30 lever gun will recoil between 10 and 13 foot-pounds of energy.
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When most think of a 45-70, they think of a 45-70 lever action rifle. However, the first 45-70 was not a lever gun. The cartridge was adopted by the U.S. military in 1873 in the single shot Trapdoor Springfield rifle. The ballistics of original .45-70 ammo was nothing to crow about by today’s standards. It was originally loaded with a 405-grain .45-caliber bullet ahead of 70 grains of black powder, hence the name 45-70. This load had a muzzle velocity of around 1300 fps and compared to modern .45-70 ballistics; it was like throwing a rock. At 200 yards the bullet would drop more than two feet.
With the arrival of the .30-30 Winchester and the 20th Century, interest in the .45-70 waned. It simply could not compete with the flatter shooting .30-30 or the even more modern .30-06. However, in the early 70s Marlin reintroduced their 1895 lever action rifle chambered for the .45-70. A version of Marlin’s much more robust 336 action, the new 1895 could handle ammunition loaded with much higher pressures. Soon, we began to see the second power level of .45-70 ammunition, which included 300-grain bullets being pushed to around 1800 fps. These carried more than 1000 foot-pounds of energy to 200 yards, with trajectories twice as flat as the original loading.
But the advancement in .45-70 ammo did not stop there. The 1895 is a very strong action and companies like Buffalo Bore began loading third power level “heavy” .45-70 ammunition. Recoil is however brutal; out of a Marlin 1895 these heavy loads generate nearly 50 foot-pounds of shoulder shoving punch.
He goes on to discuss some of the advantages and disadvantages, and ends up recommending the 30-30 for white tail and 45-70 for moose and elk (or bear and other dangerous game).
From my perspective, I just don’t want that much shoulder punch. I’m of the opinion that shooting ought to be a reasonably pleasurable experience, and if it is I’ll do it more and get better at it.
A 30-30 lever action rifle is easy to shoot. Really easy. Fun, accurate and pleasurable.
Then again, there are folks who have shot all of these guns so much that it doesn’t really matter. They’re already that good at it all, so no need for much more time at the range or in the field plinking or target shooting.
And if the really big bore gun meets your needs the best, that’s why we have variety.
By the way, I once knew a Marine Scout Sniper who shot the Barret .50. He came away with headaches every day from the range because of the concussive blast.
On March 9, 2022 at 11:34 pm, BRVTVS said:
This article gets a few historical details wrong. I’m fairly sure the original 1873 loading was closer to 500gr. A reduced recoil loading was later issued with a 405gr bullet and a reduced powder charge for the carbine versions of the trapdoor rifle.
On March 10, 2022 at 12:25 pm, Ned said:
I used to handload 30-30 with 100 – 110 short jacket roundnose and HP bullets at around 2700 fps. Very low recoil, and accurate to 100 yards in every rifle (3) that we tried them in. 125 HPs also make a low recoil fast load in 30-30 rifles. Remington used to make one. I’m certain they would make a great short distance antipersonnel load as well.
if you have a 30-30, try light bullets for plinking. You’ll like it.
Also went the other way and loaded 200 gr GC cast bullets at subsonic velocities. Good results there as well.
Still love a 45-70 though, despite the recoil.
On March 10, 2022 at 3:05 pm, Ozark Redneck said:
Having killed both deer and hogs with the 30-30 & 45-70. The old 45-70 load with the 405gr will work just fine at close range. Dropped a hog last year at about 30 yards with that load, shot him in the ear, dropped straight down. I have hand-loaded some hotter ‘bear’ loads, but don’t shoot them much, a couple of rounds of those, like you said.. shoulder punch.
On March 10, 2022 at 3:15 pm, Georgiaboy61 said:
@ Ned
Re: “I used to handload 30-30 with 100 – 110 short jacket roundnose and HP bullets at around 2700 fps. Very low recoil, and accurate to 100 yards in every rifle (3) that we tried them in. 125 HPs also make a low recoil fast load in 30-30 rifles. Remington used to make one.”
That’s a darned fine idea! Thanks for sharing it with us. Would 110-gr. round-nose work OK, similar to what got used in the .30 Carbine round?
Got a tip in return; maybe you already know it: Lever guns with tube magazines require round-nose or the like for safety reasons, so that under recoil, one or more rounds in the magazine does not get lit off by being pushed against the tip of those behind it. However, there is in theory nothing which prevents the single-loading of a spitzler (pointed) bullet in these rifles. As long as one does not place them end-to-end in the tube magazine, one should be good-to-go.
It’s sort of a work-around which allows one to extend the useful range of the cartridge while still using the 30-30 case. Of course, now that Hornady has Flex-Tips, the appeal of this may not be what it once was. YMMV.
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Re: “From my perspective, I just don’t want that much shoulder punch. I’m of the opinion that shooting ought to be a reasonably pleasurable experience, and if it is I’ll do it more and get better at it.”
I am speaking from a position of ignorance in that I do not own a lever-gun in 45-70, nor have I even shot one. However, with that disclosure up-front, it seems to me that many people love lever-guns so much – how handy they are, how well they work for people on horses or in vehicles, how easy they are to pack into the wild – that they put up with punishing recoil from cartridges like 45-70 in order to get those benefits.
On March 10, 2022 at 3:51 pm, Furminator said:
Had an 1895 guide gun that was quite pleasant to shoot with standard pressure 400 grain loads. Got some Buffalo Bore 400 grain +Ps and shot one wearing a heavy coat with a neoprene knee brace folded up between my shoulder and the gun. Lets just say when I sold the rifle it included 19 rounds of BB ammo.
On March 10, 2022 at 4:01 pm, Herschel Smith said:
@Furminator,
Yea. ^^^THAT^^^
On March 10, 2022 at 8:15 pm, Jimmy said:
Ok, I have to chime in here. I have owned both Marlins and Henrys in 45-70. All of you who think the recoil is “punishing” must not have ever fired one.
For sure, it depends on the ammo. I shoot the Remington ammo of 405gr at about 1200fps. It’s a pussycat. Everyone that I let shoot it, after the first shot, looks back at me and smiles. “I didn’t know it was so nice to shoot!” is the standard reply.
405gr at 1200fps is nothing to sneeze at either. It wouldn’t be my first choice for large bear, but consider this. Practice and enjoy the lighter loads. If you are in bear country and have to use a heavier load, I seriously doubt you’ll notice ANY recoil due to adrenaline.
For you older guys (I’m in my 60’s), the 45-70 is a very enjoyable rifle to shoot. I put it’s recoil at LESS than my .308. FAR less than a 12g semi as well. I love my lever actions.
On March 10, 2022 at 8:59 pm, Fred said:
Yep, I’m with Jimmy on this. 45-70 is smooth as butter.
On March 10, 2022 at 9:51 pm, Georgiaboy61 said:
@ Jimmy
Re: “For you older guys (I’m in my 60’s), the 45-70 is a very enjoyable rifle to shoot. I put it’s recoil at LESS than my .308. FAR less than a 12g semi as well. I love my lever actions.”
Thanks for the info…. always great to learn something new.
On March 10, 2022 at 11:00 pm, Daniel K Day said:
I load the 170-gr Lasercast flatnose bullet with 7 or 8 grains of Unique. Feels like shooting a .22, and very accurate in a Marlin 336.
The worst-kicking 30/30 I ever fired, maybe twice?, was a takedown version of a Mod. 94 a guy had with a curved steel buttplate. That hurt. He regretted it as an impulse purchase. I don’t know if he even has it any more.
On March 11, 2022 at 7:55 am, Ned said:
GB61 – I used to use both 110 grain HPs and 100 grain short jacket rounds for the 30 carbine. The Hornady round actually has a round nose and a small flat tip. While it may be worrysome to some to not use a flat point in a tubular magazine, it actually takes a pretty serious jolt to detonate a primer in a tubular magazine. (I had data on that once that’s probably not retrieveable.) Recoil is seriously reduced in the 30-30 with these tips even at high velocities (2700+ FPS) so I wasn’t worried about primer detonation even if the tip doesn’t span the distance between the primer and the rim of the cartridge case and appears to rest solely on the primer. Because of the shape, it would have to crush a lot of surface to get a primer to detonate.
It should be noted that all data was retrieved from reloading manuals, and they are all notoriously conservative in their approach to safety. (YMMV)
These loads are also explosive on varmints while being gentle on both the shoulder and the pocket book. I never shot a coyote with one, but I expect it would work well. I’ve shot thousands of them, and they’re quite fun and addictive in the 30-30.
On March 11, 2022 at 12:14 pm, xtphreak said:
@Ned
I too have loaded .30-30 with 100gr Speer RN half jacket & 110gr Speed HP half jacket for plinking / small game.
Light recoil and accurate.
During the Obama .22 LR famine, I even went to a .32 muzzleloader ball (.310″) over 3.5 gr Bullseye.
Not much if any louder than a .22 LR and satisfying for squirrels.
Started on “gallery loads” for a 32″ Sharps.
A 0.457″ round ball over 5 gr Unique is just fun in a heavy long barreled rifle.
I found the recipe in an old Lyman’s reloading manual for a 144 gr “collar stud” (Lyman mold 457130) that was developed to equivalent weight of a round ball for gallery shooting.
You hear the hammer click, the gun kinda”snorts” and a “whack” as it hits the target.
Next I’ll get going on my “bee loads” for snap shooting carpenter bees attacking my log cabin with a .44 Mag (or SPL) or a .45 Colt or a .357 Mag revolver.
Neighbors think I’m nuts standing there popping bees with a big ole revolver.
On March 11, 2022 at 12:23 pm, xtphreak said:
By the way the Sharps is a .45/70.
The bee loads are Ancini de Pepe (tiny pasta beads) over 3.5 gr Bullseye, a cardboard was, fill with ancini de pepe, cover with another was, seal with a drop of wax.
Vaporizes the bees at 6-8 ft.
Knocks em down at 10-12 ft.
I know I shouldn’t shoot the bees, but they’re eating my house and it’s great snap shooting practice!
To balance it out, the pasta loads are bio-degradable and won’t hurt the finish on wood surfaces.
Reloading is the only way to develope alternative loads.
With a assortment of bullets and a few powders, you can use one rifle for a lot of things, revolvers too.
On March 11, 2022 at 12:27 pm, xtphreak said:
Wow
The “…cardboard was…” Should read “…cardboard wad…”
Stoopid smartphone “correcting” me.
On March 12, 2022 at 11:07 am, Ned said:
XTP – I too have experimented with gallery loads. There’s info in some older manuals. Haven’t tried 45-70 yet. Nice bug load info – thanks.