AR-15 With Iron Sights Shooting At 1000 Yards
BY Herschel Smith
2 years, 7 months ago
Andy at Practical Accuracy sends this video of shooting his RRA rifle at 1000 yards with iron sights.
Andy is a good shooter. I can’t see a quarter that far without magnification though. I’ll say again, Rock River Arms rifles are shooters. We’ve discussed it many times before, but the 1:7 twist which is MilSpec was never put in place because of accuracy requirements. Steve at RRA and I have discussed this before too, and they make their rifles 1:8 (some of them 1:9).
On March 21, 2022 at 9:15 am, Woody said:
Shouldn’t he have been able to make elevation adjustments with the front sight post also?
On March 21, 2022 at 11:53 am, billrla said:
He must have some seriously good eyes at his age. For most middle aged shooters (?), I would think that using iron sites at a 1000 yards (no less, a 100 yards), would be physiologically challenging, if not impossible.
On March 21, 2022 at 2:18 pm, Ohio Guy said:
I agree, billrla. Irons at 1000 would be a crapshoot at best.
On March 21, 2022 at 2:59 pm, Furminator said:
@Woody – It sounds like he made the 15-yd zero adjustment to the front sight post and then dialed in 25 MOA to get from a 557 yard zero to 1000.
That target is half the width of the front sight on my M1A at 300 yards. It would be invisible at 1000.
On March 21, 2022 at 9:16 pm, Andy said:
Maybe I can answer some of the questions here. You can make adjustments to the elevation with the front sight, but it’s too complicated to calculate in the field. The front sight post moves your elevation 1-3/8″ inches at 100 yards. So its much easier to establish a zero with the front sight post and then use the rear drum in 1/2 or 1 moa clicks, depending on what rear drum is installed on your rifle.
I don’t have great eyes. In fact, I use -2.50 contacts for daily use. When I shoot irons, I have to put in either a -1.75 or -1.50 contact in my right eye to get a crystal clear front sight.
It is not a crapshoot to shoot 1000 yards with irons. The 4 times that I tried, I hit the target every time. 2 of those tries are on video on my YouTube channel with a 50% (5 out of 10) hit percentage.
The target is not invisible at 1000 yards. I go over this in another video on my channel. However, If you don’t use a freshly painted target and don’t have the sun at your back, it will be invisible. I know, I tried with the sun in front of me and I couldn’t shoot because I could not see the target.
My front sight post on that rifle is 9 moa wide. I took a 9 inch circle and placed it at 100 yards and my front sight covers the circle from 9 o’clock to 3 o’clock. I use this to hold for the wind. I dial in an initial wind call on the rear sight and my spotter can give me corrections in Moa (has moa reticle) through the spotting scope if I am way off. If I am not way off, I simple use the front sight post to hold off. Thus, the middle of the front sight to either edge is 4.5 moa. I also, go over this in a video on my YouTube channel.
You must call your shot and know where the target is in relation to the front sight so that you can make the proper adjustments in windage.
At that distance, the target appears about the size of a tip of a pencil on the front post. If you are going to try this, start at 300 yards and then move back to 600 yards to practice. Thats what I did. I then moved to 800 yards and then 1000.
It does take some practice. It took me several summers of practicing with Iron sights, figuring out a system and then slowly moving the target distance farther. If you like iron sights, I would encourage you to give this a try.
It’s not impossible. In fact, if you search “m1a iron sights at 1000 yards” on youtube, you will find another gentleman hitting the target at that distance. I saw this video and it was the inspiration for me to give it a try with the AR15.
Good luck
Andy
On March 21, 2022 at 11:14 pm, Georgiaboy61 said:
It is indeed impressive work by Andy to devise a field-expedient solution to the problem of how to use AR15 iron sights for such extreme range, and then actually to make the shots. Having said that, why go to such trouble? Here’s what I mean…
For years now, service rifle competitors have been winning championships at Camp Perry and elsewhere by using their match-grade AR15s at ranges of up to 1,000 yards. The long-range stage of such contests is usually slow-fire, which allows competitors to single-load heavy-for-caliber bullets one shot at a time, i.e., bullets of 75-80 grains or more, which perform well at extended range.
But competition is one thing, tactical or hunting use is another. Even the heaviest .224-caliber bullets do not have that much retained kinetic energy at that range. Sufficient to punch holes in paper targets, yes, or even ring steel… but not with much authority otherwise.
A Sierra Match King 77-grain .224-caliber projectile with MV = 2750 fps, goes trans-sonic/subsonic around 850-900 yards, and at 1000 yards has just 185 lbs.-ft. of kinetic energy.
Andy’s feat is impressive. I doubt I could do it. But I also know that if I had a thousand-yard shot to make with iron sights, I wouldn’t be reaching for an AR15 in the first place. I’d be reaching for an M-1 Garand or a bolt-action rifle chambered in something suitable. I mention the M-1 because plenty of people have used them successfully at 1,000 yards with iron sights, or with minimal magnification. There’s a guy on You Tube who hails from California, I believe, who posts videos of this sort of thing.
To put things into perspective, an M-1 Garand firing Lake City Match M72 172-grain at 2640 fps, would approximate the modern-day performance of Sierra Match King BTHP 175-grain at 2640 fps, a load which remains supersonic out to 1150-1200 yards under decent conditions. At 1,000 yards, it would still possess around 600 foot-pounds of KE.
And there are even better performers than that to be had these days….
Best of all, the sights on an M-1 are already graduated to 1200 yards, so no fancy calculations needed for the shot. Once you have a good zero and know your dope, you are good-to-go. Same for a Springfield M1903, whose iron-sights are graduated in excess of 2,000 yards.
On March 21, 2022 at 11:26 pm, Herschel Smith said:
@Georgiaboy61,
I think what Andy proves (in addition to the fact that he is a great shooter) is that the 5.56 round is effective and can be laid on target beyond what the normal conception is.
Beyond that, employ crew served weapons, like the .50, mortars, arty, etc.
On March 21, 2022 at 11:32 pm, Georgiaboy61 said:
One other thing: Speaking of AR15 iron-sights, the inability to sight in 1,000 yard/meter targets isn’t the only issue with them.
As set-up from the factory, most iron-sighted AR15 rifles/carbines use either a fixed carry-handle sight graduated to 800m, or a removable carry handle graduated to 600m. The rifle is designed to be zeroed at 25 meters using issue M193 or M855 Ball/FMJ ammo (or its modern counterpart), which produces a battle-sight zero good from point-blank range out to 300 meters, at which distance the rear-sight elevation wheel takes over.
The problem is that for civilians, many of whom do not have access to a military-type range with extended ranges out to 600 meters/yards, for example – the rifle cannot be zeroed for 25, 50 or 100 yards, which are the distances most-commonly encountered by civilian shooters at a local range.
Enter Lieutenant Colonel Chuck Santose, U.S. Army (retired), whose IBZ method – “Improved Battlesight Zero” – allows a standard AR15 to be reconfigured to zero at 50 yards. The procedure is not difficult to do, but the explanation is somewhat lengthy so will not be reproduced here. You’ll need an AR15 carbine (16″) or rifle (20″) with carry-handle sight, plus an after-market tall front sight post, such as the kind sold by Windham Weaponry “Front Sight Post + 0.40 height” (SKU 9349056-mod ).
The Santose method is enormously useful as it allows a user-friendly 50-yard near-zero/200-yard far-zero, which using 62-grain M855, is a flat-shooting zero out to 300 yards. The beauty of the Santose method is that the traditional 300-600 or 300-800m elevation settings found on the original AR15 still work.
Some enterprising folks took the Santose IBZ method one-step further, which is termed the “Revised Improved Battle-sight Zero,” or RIBZ for short. Like the Santose method, this is also available on the internet. It allows zeros at 25, 50/200, and 100 yards, in addition to using the standard carry-handle elevations past 300m.
On March 21, 2022 at 11:45 pm, Andy said:
Georgiaboy61- I agree with every thing you said about the kinetic energy of the Ar15 compared to the M1a and 1903. It’s not the best choice for a 1000 yard shot considering the sights were never intended for that distance.
So your question was why go to such trouble? My answer is the challenge of doing something out of the ordinary. That’s it.
If I wanted to almost guarantee a hit at 1000 yards, I’d grab my 300 PRC with its 25 power scope. But I have to say, that gets boring. So I tried to do something you don’t see every day.
Not everyone who has an Ar15 will try this, but maybe it will inspire someone to challenge themselves and push the limits of their abilities. That might mean shooting Ar15 iron sights at 300 yards, 600 yards, 800 yards or even 1000 yards.
I didn’t say this was practical, but it was a journey filled with a lot of fun.
Andy
On March 22, 2022 at 2:08 am, Georgiaboy61 said:
@ Andy
Re: “So your question was why go to such trouble? My answer is the challenge of doing something out of the ordinary. That’s it.”
Hey, I hope no hard feelings…. your accomplishment is impressive, and I am not at all surprised that the challenge alone was enough to motivate you. Hey, anyone who can shoot those light little pills at that distance with any accuracy in any sort of wind has my respect, and add in iron sights on top of that… it’s pretty cool what you’ve done.
In some ways, the whole history of the AR15 is like the “little engine that could,” of the service rifle world. People dismissing it as inadequate for this-or-that purpose, only to be proven wrong. Author-competitive shooter Glen D. Zediker penned a book, “The Competitive AR15 – ‘The Mouse that Roared'” – which pretty much sums it up. The Garand and M1A/M14 guys who had previously dominated NRA-CMP high-power got their clocks cleaned by the AR15 guys (and more than a few gals!) and had to eat their words.
On March 22, 2022 at 10:15 am, Andy said:
Georgiaboy61- No hard feelings. I completely agree with everything you said.
On to the next challenge.
Andy
On March 22, 2022 at 11:23 am, Ohio Guy said:
@Georgiaboy61, You stated that better than I could articulate.
@Andy, I too, have often wondered of my capability at that distance with my beloved AR’s. I think it takes special abilities to do what you have so aptly shown in regard to stretching the AR’s legs on these outrageous distances. Not many can do that, imo. My hat’s off to you, sir.
On March 22, 2022 at 4:46 pm, X said:
I have never shot to 1000 but have shot out to 600 plenty of times with irons in National Match. Wind becomes a much bigger factor at 1000 than it is at 600.
If your old eyes cannot focus on the front sight, you can get a lens for your rear aperture that functions somewhat the way reading glasses do. That helps, but you still have to deal with mirage and shadow.
Shooting that kind of distance with an iron-sighted AR isn’t really isn’t very practical, though. You can’t do it unless you have a large enough target that is in contrast to its surroundings (i.e., at 600 you are shooting at a 34.5″ black circle on a white background). Also, the projectile loses a significant amount of energy by 1000 yards, if you hit the target at all you are not going to deliver much more energy than a .22. Certainly not enough to kill a soldier or a deer.
Finally you have to be absolutely certain that the target is actually at 1000 because proper elevation inputs become so critical at that distance. On the range that is no problem, but in field conditions or in combat if you guess that the target is at 1000 yards and it’s actually 875 you are going to miss.
But yeah, shooting distance is really cool and very satisfying.
On March 25, 2022 at 2:31 pm, Mark P said:
The quick way that we did this back in 2002/2003 time frame at 1K matches before the AR10 was considered a “Service Rifle” by the NRA and the 4.5 max power scope rule was not a thing, was to get a 600yd zero and then turn the front site down 4 complete turns (20MOA)
This generally got you in the 8 ring for your first sighter.
I used a 6.5 twist Pac-Nor 3 groove SR profile barrel with JLK 90gr VLD’s Others used 80 SMK or some other VLD. When you have young eyes and can shoot, this is not really difficult. The hard part was matching the load to the temperature, so that primers stayed in the case and not down in your trigger group. That struggle WAS real!!!