Loaded Round Runout

BY Herschel Smith
1 year, 8 months ago

This video is interesting for reloaders (and for me too even though I don’t reload).  I suppose an interesting question might be how much deviation from exact concentricity is there in factory ammunition between ordinary bulk supply milstandard cartridges and more expensive hunting rounds?  The immediate question, however, is how much deviation should you aim for if you’re a reloader?

Here is an article in Rifle Shooter Magazine that also bears on the subject.


Comments

  1. On February 18, 2023 at 1:45 am, Georgiaboy61 said:

    Cartridge run-out matters – or can matter – in certain shooting disciplines where an extreme level of accuracy and precision is sought after and to be desired, such as F-Class bench-rest shooting at long range.

    In brief, having the projectile precisely centered in the bore with minimal run-out means that the bullet will be presented to the rifling centered and in the proper orientation for its most consistent flight. Namely, with the longitudinal bullet axis parallel to and in line with the barrel. Assuming that the projectile is consistently formed around its axis, then the proper presentation helps assure that the bullet leaves the barrel in the same orientation each and every shot, or that is the goal at any rate.

    If, on the other hand, the bullet engages the rifling off-centered, then it will travel down the barrel so oriented and once it leaves the barrel it will be rotating around that axis – at least for a time – during its flight, throwing off its accuracy and precision relative to other shots. At longer ranges, enough to cause unwanted dispersion on the target downrange.

    Bullet run-out matters in factory rifles, but not to the extent that it does in custom rifles designed with tight chambers, throats and hand-lapped bores for competition use with a specific factory cartridge or hand-load. In an off-the-shelf rifle, there are so many other variables other than run-out influencing the shot that correcting for it may not make much of a difference.

    The same sort of debate surrounds whether to turn case necks for precision purposes. Opinions vary for and against, but the bottom line is that if you turn necks and test those loads against the same ones with un-turned case necks, can you shoot the difference? If a competition shooter who is an expert can’t tell the difference, Billy Bob the deer hunter with his Remington 700 probably won’t be able to tell the difference, either.

    As one of my mentors -a retired military officer, ballistics expert and master reloader – put it, go ahead and correct for concentrically and run-out, or turn case necks for that matter, if it makes you feel better and more confident behind your rifle and it helps you make better shots. That’s a valid reason to do it, too.

  2. On February 18, 2023 at 12:34 pm, Grunt said:

    Thanks Georgia Boy, with your explanation I won’t go out and buy ANOTHER reloading gadget.

  3. On February 18, 2023 at 3:22 pm, =TW= said:

    The pursuit of accuracy is largely the elimination of variables in order to increase repeatability. Some platforms, Ruger Minis for instance, will require more attention than, say, bolt action or single shot rifles.
    Perhaps the first item to address is to determine which ammunition the weapon prefers.
    Bedding, blueprinting, custom barrel etc can follow as needed. Don’t overlook the trigger.
    I imagine the law of diminishing returns will apply- the least expensive upgrades might produce the largest gains.

  4. On February 18, 2023 at 3:42 pm, =TW= said:

    Pay attention to muzzle crown- it should be square to the bore, undamaged and free of defects. Muzzle devices may adversely affect accuracy.
    These are the last things the bullet encounters on its way downrange.

  5. On February 18, 2023 at 9:35 pm, Elmo said:

    That was a super interesting video. Thank you. His results, to me anyway, are really surprising yet in a way back up my experience.

    I don’t shoot at 1000 yards (I wish I did). My longest range is 538 yards. I don’t get carried away with anything in loading my rounds, I’m just meticulous about my powder weights and use Fed Match primers in fired Fed cases that haven’t been weight sorted and just prepped in the usual manner. No neck turning and nothing fancy in preparation. My rifle is a Savage action with a Shilen barrel, which I think takes most of the credit for my great groups. When I get a chance to shoot at that distance with my low-zootey rounds I usually expect groups of less than 3″. My best one to date is an inch and three quarters.

    Short story long is that if you’re shooting for fun at long distance don’t sweat the small stuff. Do the best you can with what you’ve got, get out there and shoot and most importantly, have fun. And you’ll probably still be able to put the hurt on a coyote (or scare the crap out of a two-legged varmint) at 400 yards with ease.

  6. On February 18, 2023 at 10:05 pm, James said:

    i’ve only handloaded ~40k rounds for 3gun/multigun and load on a cheap ass turret press; the runout on concentricity can’t be great. never had issues with hitting furthest 550yrd targets on a timer. quality barrel and projectiles make the difference.

  7. On February 19, 2023 at 1:47 am, Georgiaboy61 said:

    @ Grunt

    Re: “Thanks Georgia Boy, with your explanation I won’t go out and buy ANOTHER reloading gadget.”

    Hey, don’t let me rain on the parade! If you want a new gadget, then go for it. Especially if you are good-enough to shoot the difference….

  8. On February 19, 2023 at 9:07 pm, =TW= said:

    My $0.02 after watching the video-
    It would be difficult to reload a bullet with .035″ runout. (Video guy had to massage them to achieve this.)
    It would be nearly impossible to get more than a few thousandths runout on a short, fat bullet in a straight wall case.
    The long, skinny cartridge might not feed properly.
    But if it did, the chamber throat and leade would correct the runout- at least to some extent. (Video guy mentioned this.)
    Compromised neck tension on the massaged cartridges may have contributed to larger groups. (I assume he used identical powder charges.)
    Maybe better to have fired 5-shot groups of each lot, and presented results in a less busy manner. (A minor quibble.)

RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URL

Leave a comment


You are currently reading "Loaded Round Runout", entry #34056 on The Captain's Journal.

This article is filed under the category(s) Ammunition and was published February 16th, 2023 by Herschel Smith.

If you're interested in what else the The Captain's Journal has to say, you might try thumbing through the archives and visiting the main index, or; perhaps you would like to learn more about TCJ.

26th MEU (10)
Abu Muqawama (12)
ACOG (2)
ACOGs (1)
Afghan National Army (36)
Afghan National Police (17)
Afghanistan (704)
Afghanistan SOFA (4)
Agriculture in COIN (3)
AGW (1)
Air Force (40)
Air Power (10)
al Qaeda (83)
Ali al-Sistani (1)
America (22)
Ammunition (284)
Animals (297)
Ansar al Sunna (15)
Anthropology (3)
Antonin Scalia (1)
AR-15s (378)
Arghandab River Valley (1)
Arlington Cemetery (2)
Army (87)
Assassinations (2)
Assault Weapon Ban (29)
Australian Army (7)
Azerbaijan (4)
Backpacking (3)
Badr Organization (8)
Baitullah Mehsud (21)
Basra (17)
BATFE (229)
Battle of Bari Alai (2)
Battle of Wanat (18)
Battle Space Weight (3)
Bin Laden (7)
Blogroll (3)
Blogs (24)
Body Armor (23)
Books (3)
Border War (18)
Brady Campaign (1)
Britain (38)
British Army (35)
Camping (5)
Canada (17)
Castle Doctrine (1)
Caucasus (6)
CENTCOM (7)
Center For a New American Security (8)
Charity (3)
China (16)
Christmas (16)
CIA (30)
Civilian National Security Force (3)
Col. Gian Gentile (9)
Combat Outposts (3)
Combat Video (2)
Concerned Citizens (6)
Constabulary Actions (3)
Coolness Factor (3)
COP Keating (4)
Corruption in COIN (4)
Council on Foreign Relations (1)
Counterinsurgency (218)
DADT (2)
David Rohde (1)
Defense Contractors (2)
Department of Defense (210)
Department of Homeland Security (26)
Disaster Preparedness (5)
Distributed Operations (5)
Dogs (15)
Donald Trump (27)
Drone Campaign (4)
EFV (3)
Egypt (12)
El Salvador (1)
Embassy Security (1)
Enemy Spotters (1)
Expeditionary Warfare (17)
F-22 (2)
F-35 (1)
Fallujah (17)
Far East (3)
Fathers and Sons (2)
Favorite (1)
Fazlullah (3)
FBI (39)
Featured (190)
Federal Firearms Laws (18)
Financing the Taliban (2)
Firearms (1,798)
Football (1)
Force Projection (35)
Force Protection (4)
Force Transformation (1)
Foreign Policy (27)
Fukushima Reactor Accident (6)
Ganjgal (1)
Garmsir (1)
general (15)
General Amos (1)
General James Mattis (1)
General McChrystal (44)
General McKiernan (6)
General Rodriguez (3)
General Suleimani (9)
Georgia (19)
GITMO (2)
Google (1)
Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (1)
Gun Control (1,672)
Guns (2,338)
Guns In National Parks (3)
Haditha Roundup (10)
Haiti (2)
HAMAS (7)
Haqqani Network (9)
Hate Mail (8)
Hekmatyar (1)
Heroism (5)
Hezbollah (12)
High Capacity Magazines (16)
High Value Targets (9)
Homecoming (1)
Homeland Security (3)
Horses (2)
Humor (72)
Hunting (38)
ICOS (1)
IEDs (7)
Immigration (114)
India (10)
Infantry (4)
Information Warfare (4)
Infrastructure (4)
Intelligence (23)
Intelligence Bulletin (6)
Iran (171)
Iraq (379)
Iraq SOFA (23)
Islamic Facism (64)
Islamists (98)
Israel (19)
Jaish al Mahdi (21)
Jalalabad (1)
Japan (3)
Jihadists (81)
John Nagl (5)
Joint Intelligence Centers (1)
JRTN (1)
Kabul (1)
Kajaki Dam (1)
Kamdesh (9)
Kandahar (12)
Karachi (7)
Kashmir (2)
Khost Province (1)
Khyber (11)
Knife Blogging (7)
Korea (4)
Korengal Valley (3)
Kunar Province (20)
Kurdistan (3)
Language in COIN (5)
Language in Statecraft (1)
Language Interpreters (2)
Lashkar-e-Taiba (2)
Law Enforcement (6)
Lawfare (14)
Leadership (6)
Lebanon (6)
Leon Panetta (2)
Let Them Fight (2)
Libya (14)
Lines of Effort (3)
Littoral Combat (8)
Logistics (50)
Long Guns (1)
Lt. Col. Allen West (2)
Marine Corps (280)
Marines in Bakwa (1)
Marines in Helmand (67)
Marjah (4)
MEDEVAC (2)
Media (68)
Medical (146)
Memorial Day (6)
Mexican Cartels (41)
Mexico (61)
Michael Yon (6)
Micromanaging the Military (7)
Middle East (1)
Military Blogging (26)
Military Contractors (5)
Military Equipment (25)
Militia (9)
Mitt Romney (3)
Monetary Policy (1)
Moqtada al Sadr (2)
Mosul (4)
Mountains (25)
MRAPs (1)
Mullah Baradar (1)
Mullah Fazlullah (1)
Mullah Omar (3)
Musa Qala (4)
Music (25)
Muslim Brotherhood (6)
Nation Building (2)
National Internet IDs (1)
National Rifle Association (97)
NATO (15)
Navy (30)
Navy Corpsman (1)
NCOs (3)
News (1)
NGOs (3)
Nicholas Schmidle (2)
Now Zad (19)
NSA (3)
NSA James L. Jones (6)
Nuclear (62)
Nuristan (8)
Obama Administration (221)
Offshore Balancing (1)
Operation Alljah (7)
Operation Khanjar (14)
Ossetia (7)
Pakistan (165)
Paktya Province (1)
Palestine (5)
Patriotism (7)
Patrolling (1)
Pech River Valley (11)
Personal (73)
Petraeus (14)
Pictures (1)
Piracy (13)
Pistol (4)
Pizzagate (21)
Police (656)
Police in COIN (3)
Policy (15)
Politics (980)
Poppy (2)
PPEs (1)
Prisons in Counterinsurgency (12)
Project Gunrunner (20)
PRTs (1)
Qatar (1)
Quadrennial Defense Review (2)
Quds Force (13)
Quetta Shura (1)
RAND (3)
Recommended Reading (14)
Refueling Tanker (1)
Religion (495)
Religion and Insurgency (19)
Reuters (1)
Rick Perry (4)
Rifles (1)
Roads (4)
Rolling Stone (1)
Ron Paul (1)
ROTC (1)
Rules of Engagement (75)
Rumsfeld (1)
Russia (37)
Sabbatical (1)
Sangin (1)
Saqlawiyah (1)
Satellite Patrols (2)
Saudi Arabia (4)
Scenes from Iraq (1)
Second Amendment (685)
Second Amendment Quick Hits (2)
Secretary Gates (9)
Sharia Law (3)
Shura Ittehad-ul-Mujahiden (1)
SIIC (2)
Sirajuddin Haqqani (1)
Small Wars (72)
Snipers (9)
Sniveling Lackeys (2)
Soft Power (4)
Somalia (8)
Sons of Afghanistan (1)
Sons of Iraq (2)
Special Forces (28)
Squad Rushes (1)
State Department (23)
Statistics (1)
Sunni Insurgency (10)
Support to Infantry Ratio (1)
Supreme Court (62)
Survival (201)
SWAT Raids (57)
Syria (38)
Tactical Drills (38)
Tactical Gear (15)
Taliban (168)
Taliban Massing of Forces (4)
Tarmiyah (1)
TBI (1)
Technology (21)
Tehrik-i-Taliban (78)
Terrain in Combat (1)
Terrorism (96)
Thanksgiving (13)
The Anbar Narrative (23)
The Art of War (5)
The Fallen (1)
The Long War (20)
The Surge (3)
The Wounded (13)
Thomas Barnett (1)
Transnational Insurgencies (5)
Tribes (5)
TSA (25)
TSA Ineptitude (14)
TTPs (4)
U.S. Border Patrol (6)
U.S. Border Security (19)
U.S. Sovereignty (24)
UAVs (2)
UBL (4)
Ukraine (10)
Uncategorized (99)
Universal Background Check (3)
Unrestricted Warfare (4)
USS Iwo Jima (2)
USS San Antonio (1)
Uzbekistan (1)
V-22 Osprey (4)
Veterans (3)
Vietnam (1)
War & Warfare (419)
War & Warfare (41)
War Movies (4)
War Reporting (21)
Wardak Province (1)
Warriors (6)
Waziristan (1)
Weapons and Tactics (79)
West Point (1)
Winter Operations (1)
Women in Combat (21)
WTF? (1)
Yemen (1)

November 2024
October 2024
September 2024
August 2024
July 2024
June 2024
May 2024
April 2024
March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006

about · archives · contact · register

Copyright © 2006-2024 Captain's Journal. All rights reserved.