Does a Police Checkpoint on a Bike-Trail Violate the Fourth Amendment?
BY Herschel Smith
1 year, 6 months ago
He poses some interesting questions, and I’d like to see this issue studied a bit by him or someone equally familiar with both constitutional and case law.
My own view is that simply putting a sign up at an entrance to so-called government property (like a park) isn’t reason enough to justify a search. That’s not a so-called “administrative search.” I assume and believe that for public places, the rules of “Terry Stop” still apply, i.e., there must be articulable reason for the search such as suspicion in the commission of a crime.
I’ve given this some thought too concerning stops and searches of hunters on public lands. Almost every hunter is aware of his training, i.e., when you are approached by a DNR officer, put your weapon in a safe condition, be polite, and be prepared to have your privacy invaded. He may and probably will demand to see your hunting license and examine your harvest.
But why? What gives that DNR agent the right to do that? The fact that they’re on “public land?” Do the citizens not own the public land? What’s the difference between public hunting land and a downtown sidewalk? Do we allow cops to come up to us and frisk us, demand to identify us, and demand to search our belongings because we’re walking on a sidewalk “owned” by the state? No, most states do not have stop and identify statutes, and besides, those are unconstitutional even if they exist.
Why does a DNR officer have the right to assume I don’t have a hunting license just because I’m hunting (that’s the assumption behind demanding to see my hunting license, right, that I don’t have a license)? Why does the DNR officer have the right to force me to open the tailgate of my truck and examine my harvest? Does he have evidence of a crime to make such invasive demands? Without such evidence, or at least suspicion, does that search violate the fourth amendment?
I would claim that it does. England had rules regulating hunting under the notion of the royal forest. As of the 12th century, nearly a third of England’s land was designated “royal forest,” and only the king’s men and other nobility were allowed to hunt game there.
We don’t live in England. We live in America. We fought a war over things just like this.
I think this is pregnant ground to be tilled, and I’d like to see lawyers take this up with some offended hunter – perhaps all the way to the supreme court.
On May 31, 2023 at 5:22 am, jrg said:
You made some great points up there. In the case of DNR / Game Dept officials asking hunters to submit documents, you are asking the individual to provide evidence of compilance. Searching for broken laws to punish the individual is wrong.
On May 31, 2023 at 8:31 am, PGF said:
Licensing needs to be abolished and the standing armies disarmed, disbanded, and decommissioned.
On May 31, 2023 at 9:20 am, NOG said:
If you think that is bad, you should learn about the Coast Guard and boats. Are they Military or Police? They are claiming both. They will come onto your boat for a “safety check” but shift into “do you have any drugs onboard?”. Take the boat apart looking for drugs and walk away. The take it apart does not mean just move things around. They will literally disassemble the interior. Just because they can. How is that Constitutional? Military acting as police? We got the same treatment down near the border. The Border Patrol claims power up to 100 miles from the border. They will stop you and search you and your car with no RS of a crime. Just because they can. Remove everything from the car and leave it on the side of the road. Just because “its legal” and “just following orders”. Where have I heard that one before?
On May 31, 2023 at 11:50 am, George said:
The Border Patrol is supposed to follow the 4th Amendment guidelines.
Reasonable suspicion is required to stop a vehicle.
All 4th Amendment searches are to be based on probable cause. This includes the highway exception that has been articulated since 1929 by the Supreme court.
Traffic checkpoints have been upheld in the courts.
All traffic at these checkpoints can be stopped. Further inspection of the occupants or personal possessions must be based on PC.
On May 31, 2023 at 1:28 pm, Orwell's Ghost said:
When it comes to hunting, it’s not about public land. It’s about taking a commodity(hunting game) that is technically owned and managed by the state. Poaching is an issue and there are more than enough shady characters that will not abide by the rules. It’s like the asshole private land owners that think that the deer and elk on their privately owned lands are “theirs”. Sorry, but no, you don’t own the animals.
If you owned land and saw someone out on your property with a rifle, wouldn’t you want to know what they are doing there? While the example in the video is in Chicago, and I will agree that people in transit going about their day should not be stop and searched. Much like how NY had the stop and frisk thing going on until it was found constitutional. Just like setting up a check point on the interstate looking for drugs would also be unconstitutional. I just feel it’s a bit disingenuous to use the analogy of a State DNR or Game Warden asking to see if you have a valid hunting license to searching your bags while your out walking.
On May 31, 2023 at 3:34 pm, Herschel Smith said:
Your case is unconvincing and lacks logic in my view. What right does a DNR agent have to see any of my paperwork? Technically, God owns the animal kingdom, not the state.
The fact that there are shady characters out there who will poach is no different from the fact that there are shady characters out there who will rob or beat or rape you.
We don’t demand to see papers because we aren’t a communist or Nazi state. Or, correct that. We do demand to see papers because we are a communist or Nazi state.
On May 31, 2023 at 4:43 pm, Paul B said:
Depends on state I think. As to whether you will be checked. Only time I got rousted was in Missouri and I know I was dimed out by a clerk who did not have any minnows. Only good thing from that trip was the business went under a short time after.
No, they should bother you absent any overt evidence of a crime in progress.
On May 31, 2023 at 4:44 pm, Paul B said:
Last line should have not in it. Touch pad typing blows
On May 31, 2023 at 10:02 pm, Bear Claw Chris Lapp said:
One year opening day dove season in Texas, I was out o state, the assholes came by just as the sun had cracked and the dove were moving and it was legal to shoot. Had to stop what I’m doing, empty gun and get checked, assholes.
My brother was by the road where they parked and he texted me after they left checking him, I was legal either way, assholes, did I say they were assholes. Coulda waited an hour or when I was coming out, assholes.
On May 31, 2023 at 10:04 pm, Bear Claw Chris Lapp said:
ps Orwell, it’s about the money, everything is about the money, assholes.
On May 31, 2023 at 10:16 pm, george 1 said:
the 4th amendment issues aside, notice that most of those cops look like thugs. If you are out questioning random people going about their business you should at least have a professional appearance.
On May 31, 2023 at 10:29 pm, Dan said:
Our Rights are routinely violated because the criminals in power and their hired thugs can violate them with impunity. And the courts rarely do anything about it. It’s a very simple concept. When you are not held accountable you do whatever you want.
On May 31, 2023 at 10:44 pm, The Wretched Dog said:
George said: “The Border Patrol is supposed to follow the 4th Amendment guidelines.
Reasonable suspicion is required to stop a vehicle.
All 4th Amendment searches are to be based on probable cause. This includes the highway exception that has been articulated since 1929 by the Supreme court.
Traffic checkpoints have been upheld in the courts.
All traffic at these checkpoints can be stopped. Further inspection of the occupants or personal possessions must be based on PC.”
Umm – no. 100 mile border zone; checkpoints, search at will based upon whatever criteria they want, which they will not articulate to you. This I know from personal experience.
In 2005, just prior to my first deployment to Iraq, wife and kids and I are in our RV for a long weekend in New Mexico. We come across one of these 100-mile border zone checkpoints – explicitly stated by BP agent. It’s an RV. Drugs, illegals, can you imagine?
Directed off the road to the “secure area for further screening.” All the usual questions: “US citizen, what is your purpose, where are you headed, how many people aboard …?”
When I told them seven, their eyes lit up, whereupon they ‘requested’ to examine the interior…
Now I am very much a constitutionalist and would normally put them off with an argument regarding probable cause, etc. But this was too rich and my wife and kids were aboard.
“Sure, I’ll open the side door.” – where they meet my wife and five minor children preparing lunch and playing games at the dinette.
“Thank you very much you are free to go.”
Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor, as I didn’t want an incident putting my family at risk – because we all know that you are never more unsafe than in the presence of armed state authority.
TWD
On May 31, 2023 at 10:50 pm, The Wretched Dog said:
And to answer Herschel’s question in the title of the post. Yes, a police checkpoint on a bike-trail violates the 4th Amendment, as does the DNR ‘just checking’.
TWD
On May 31, 2023 at 11:34 pm, X said:
“We don’t demand to see papers because we aren’t a communist or Nazi state.”
We WEREN’T a communist state. We sure as hell are now, though, in the post-911 world. Everyone’s a “terrorist” until proven otherwise. The Constitution means absolutely nothing today.
On May 31, 2023 at 11:45 pm, X said:
I find it interesting that Chicago PD is searching compliant white adults in affluent white areas but somehow they are unable to do anything about the minority flashmobs, vandalism, and drive-bys committed by the Bloods and the Vice Lords.
Looks to me like unionized grifters with government badges are ticking off days until their first pension check by hassling the low-hanging fruit.
On June 1, 2023 at 6:20 am, Joe Blow said:
I’ve run into this here in TN and… have some strong feelings.
We had a couple old horses pastured out front, one was getting really old…. neighbor called and animal welfare came and did a check.
I met up with them on the property the next day. They admitted they ealked passed 4 no tresspassing signs, all over my place, checked out everything they felt the need to, all on private property, all with no warrant, nor permission.
Yes, they have that right, apparently. TWRA officers told me the same thing once (and you’ve linked to articles about that here). Apparently private property means nothing if the safety and welfare of a domesticated or wild animal is in question. Don’t recall seeing THAT as an exception to the Constitution.
There is a fundamental problem in the relationship between the state and the people, and until that is straightened out 1776-style, the problems will exacerbate and continue.
On June 1, 2023 at 8:08 am, Doughbelly said:
See Pickle vs Arkansas
On June 1, 2023 at 11:47 am, Fat Tire Bike said:
I used to think a buddy was paranoid but one night did see a cruiser on a bike path in university section of town, viewing from attic window which was on the same level as the trail.
It is a crime ridden area and people just ignore the posted sign with hours of operation.
On June 1, 2023 at 2:10 pm, Michael (from Utah) said:
@Joe Blow – Must be some neighbor to call the authorities rather than just approach you directly and ask about the animal.
In this day and age, I can’t think of a good reason to call the so-called “authorities” about anything. The risk of something going bad is too great.
I agree with the write-up and the comments that indicate that the searches in Chicago violate the 4th Amendment. Then again, they don’t care.
When I saw the video yesterday, I also wondered (Like X) why it is that Chicago PD can hassle peaceful people out on a walk near a beach, but won’t do anything about the violence in the rest of the city. Hmmmm….
On June 1, 2023 at 9:01 pm, Daniel Smith said:
The reason DNR officers act that way is due to the nature of people as a whole….without DNR and forestry management, we’d be exactly where we were 100 years ago : clear cutting entire forests into barren landscapes and killing everything that moves, just like we did 100 years ago. Our tax paying dollars support the game wardens, along with our license that gives us the privilege to hunt. Because that’s what it is now thanks to us, a privilege. Last time it was a “right”, we crippled the ecosystem to the verge of collapse without massive government intervention. Game wardens require id and licensing because it’s the responsibility and duty of the hunter to pay his or her dues so we all can continue to enjoy it. Without that authority they have, do you really think people would be responsible enough to maintain? I mean really think about that.
On June 1, 2023 at 9:39 pm, Herschel Smith said:
Okay. Now, take your argument and turn it around to all of the parks, roadways, highways, sidewalks, office buildings, and everywhere else in America. We’d just screw up everything if we don’t have a license and papers to go certain places, and we have no rights to do anything without government licensure.
What’s the difference? Why doesn’t the Gestapo have a right to stop you for no good reason at all and demand papers for government approval for travel, and search you and your wife?
I didn’t say have no harvest limits. Read again. I am comparing and contrasting, and I made my target stops without proper cause. Do Terry Stop rules apply everywhere, and if not, why not?
On June 1, 2023 at 10:14 pm, JB said:
Reminds me of France under NAZI occupation.
On June 2, 2023 at 8:52 am, Ned said:
Just spitballing here, because I don’t know, but wondering of when you purchase a hunting license, you are somehow making a legal consent to be checked by game wardens.
On June 2, 2023 at 8:56 am, J. Smith said:
100 miles from the border is considered a consitution free zone due to circumstances, hence the ability fir checkpoints and IMO violations of your rights, but courts uphold as reasonable and necessary, but it also requires your consent on some level. Dont consent to answering question or a search on or near the border on a US highway and youre going have a bad day.
As for game officers, courts have regularly upheld these officers can violate 4&5th amendment rights due to the nature of their work. Private property violations, no probable cause, illegal searches have all been upheld by courts in most states for game officers. Its why i dont buy a license nor hunt anymore.
Years back i had a salt lick on my posted private property, only way anyone could have known it existed is if they illegally trespassed. I pulled it 30 days prior to deer season, as PA rules stated. I shot a doe first day about two hundred yards the opposite direction of where the salt lick was. Johnny law was hiding behind a near hill and came and fined me as soon as the deer dropped. Total setup. I took them to court, judge didn’t want to hear or see any of my arguments, case law, etc…Game warden brought in a soil expert from the local college with soil samples they had tested, the states case was, the salt residue was still in the ground, and for that to be legally removed i would have to excavate the entire surrounding soil. Unreal. This is the scummery that says hey, im just following orders. No where in the game manuals is that level of removal discussed, recommended, nothing. So even following the letter of their own law is always subject to their opinion. All the game rules are written to be interpreted how they want to, when they want. Research case law on this you will see what im saying, you have no rights with regards to what courts allow game officers to get away with. That little episode cost me about $1,600 in fines and almost my security clearance. GFY!
These states wonder why no one is hunting or fishing anymore. Hmmn, wonder why?
On June 2, 2023 at 9:05 am, Bobsuruncle said:
I had a police officer do what these officers were doing in chicago once when i was in college. He demanded Id for no reason other than i was parking my bike on the sidewalk, when i told him i didnt have Id he demanded my social security number, i refused. I gave my full name snd address which he ran for wants and warrants. He threatened to take me to jail if i didnt give him my SSN. No problem johnny law, ill see you in court. In court the judge pulled me in his chambers and asked me did he say these things, cause the officer all the sudden in court denied everything. The judge fired the officer on the spot. Stand up to these criminals, it is forced coercion to commit crimes with a firearm upon your hip, and a violation of US code 18, section 242, even more felonies. Know your rights and dont be afraid to have your day in court.
On June 2, 2023 at 9:55 am, Dirk said:
It’s bullshit, clearly what I saw was a ruse, a trick, I did not see anybody being ordered to open their bags, I saw citizens “ Consenting” by opening their bags based on an obscure park board “ City Ordnance”.
I don’t like it but I get it, the PoPo, routinely police a compliant citizenry, VS a non compliant citizenry.
What amuses me is, who the fuck conceals their weapon in a bag? If it’s not on you, it’s useless.
I’m told by associates in the CPD, that there are entire area’s that the Police do not enter in Chicago. What a shit hole.
Dirk
On June 2, 2023 at 10:19 am, NOG said:
About that 100 mile Constitution Free Zone “along the borders”. Most don’t realize it includes 100 miles around ALL ENTRY POINTS. Meaning every international airport that has customs offices/checks. That means 100 miles around Denver’s airport. 100 miles around Dallas/Ft Worth airport. 100 miles around Nashville and Atlanta. Railroad has a Customs bonded warehouse? 100 mile Constitution free zone. That is a lot of the USA that is a “Constitution Free Zone”. Spreading like the cancer that spawned it. It’s not only CBP. TSA jumped in with “VIPER Teams”. First slowly, then suddenly. It’s coming.
On June 2, 2023 at 2:03 pm, Okanogan Offgrid said:
Bobsuruncle, you are lucky you live someplace with reasonable judges. Where I live the judges seem as corrupt as the thugs the county hires as deputies.