SurvivalBlog On Nonpermissive Carry
BY Herschel Smith
6 years, 10 months ago
Hugh Latimer deals with nonpermissive carry, and does it in an interesting context.
The Bible has very little to say about dealing with a secular government. When it does talk about it, it is usually within the context of finances (Give unto Cesar…) or God’s punishment. We are expected to be good citizens because our faith demands moral decisions based upon the ethics that God lays out. Our citizenship is first with the Kingdom of God, though we participate in the worldly governments because they have direct bearing upon our lives. When there is a conflict between the two, we choose the heavenly kingdom without hesitation.
Romans 13
That being said, Romans 13 is probably one of the most misquoted scriptures that I know of. We must always look at the context of scripture because pulling it out of context is an easy way to get bad theology. Romans 12 is about the congregation and how they are to deal with each other. It is about the Body of Christ, and as individuals we all have our separate parts to play. Romans 14 is also about how believers interact with each other within the congregation, including the concept to not judge each other’s salvation over trivial things.
Why, in the middle of that conversation, would Paul suddenly start talking about obedience to a secular government? No, Romans 13 is about being submissive to church government and church discipline. The whole thing is about how Christians interrelate to each other, not how we relate to a secular government.
Ordained
While God can and does use secular governments to bring about judgment upon a disobedient people, He does not ordain sinful men to positions of authority. God does not ordain a secular government. He does, however, ordain church government and those who have been ordained speak with God’s authority. (Note that I’m talking about those who have been ordained by God, not those who have been through a seminary’s ordination process. You’ll know the difference because those ordained by God speak with wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. Those ordained by man speak only with knowledge, and usually not too much of that.)
Consequences
As to your question, SurvivalBlog cannot make any recommendation. Only you can make the determination. If you choose to carry when it is against the law, there will be consequences if you are caught. God does not often relieve us of consequences to our decisions. There are two risks that I can see:
- If an incident occurs and your concealed carry saves lives, you will still probably face charges and your career as a teacher will be over, at a minimum. You might even go to jail for a long time. (But at least you are alive, as is anyone you saved.)
- You may get caught and face those same consequences without the reward of having saved lives. Speaking as a teacher of high school students for eight years, I can tell you that there is very little that escapes the attention of students, and all it takes is one child to notice your illegal behavior and end your career.
Civil Disobedience
Civil disobedience has long been a part of U.S. history, but just because you stand for what you believe is no guarantee that you will be released from the consequences of breaking the law. Only you can make the determination of what your convictions are and whether you are willing to face the consequences of such a decision.
Okay, I’m not trying to steal Hugh’s thunder by citing at length, and you really need to read the entire post, including the letter for context, in addition to the very astute comments at SurvivalBlog.
That said, I quoted at length because you needed to have it above for reference because I intend to make some comments myself.
I highly respect SurvivalBlog’s work, including all of the authors. They are a regular visit for me and I recommend that they be one of your daily stops as well. I have to agree and disagree with Hugh.
First of all, I have engaged in nonpermissive carry before and I will do it again. Most places in which I have done so have been places where the maximum punishment would have been being ejected (or asked to leave), although in a few places I might have been cuffed and carted off to jail for the night. I’ve been very careful in nonpermissive environments, I might add.
What I don’t do is risk my livelihood, and so I am at maximum risk to my life when I am at work. Everybody must make these kinds of decisions. I would actually prefer that we home school our children rather than educate them in public schools, and that includes solidly, thoroughgoing Christian education in all subjects. Or in other words, I prefer a Christian world and life view to be the guiding light for all subjects, all material and all context.
But I do understand that we have Christians (and other gun owners who may not be Christians) in public schools who might need sage advice. Like Hugh, I cannot give legal advice. But I do want to say a word about ordained authority and civil disobedience.
I am an unapologetic Calvinist. With Calvin (who followed Pauline theology), I believe that God ordains “whatsoever comes to pass” (WCF), e.g., see Isaiah 46:9-10, Ephesians 1:11, and far too many other passages to outline here (I would have to pen an entire treatise on this subject to fully deal with it). That means God has ordained wicked men to positions of authority at times and epochs in history.
It’s also no accident that the concept of covenant is the ruling concept for how God deals with men, and how He expects men to deal with men in life. All men and all institutions are under covenant with God, including governments. When governments of men have broken covenant with God, it is within the purview of the authority God has given men to overthrow said governments.
We’ve dealt with this many times, and as we’ve seen, the American war of independence was just such a war. Civil disobedience under such circumstances is no mere social justice warrioring. It is a holy endeavor which has God’s blessing.
However, whether nonpermissive carry in a school is just such a situation must be the call of the individual in the situation. Rarely in history does an individual example rise to the level of needing revolution as an amelioration. It’s usually a collection of situations, the weight of the evidence brought against a government. Like Hugh, you must consider the consequences of getting caught in nonpermissive carry. I’ve done it before, I’ll do it again, and there are circumstances where I won’t even consider it.
Thanks to Fred Tippens for the tip.
On December 30, 2017 at 12:02 am, Backwoods Engineer said:
Latimer says: “No, Romans 13 is about being submissive to church government and church discipline.”
NO. That interpretation is WRONG. Do church leaders “bear the sword” (Romans 13:4)? A church that converts by the sword and beheads heretics is not God’s church. That is evil. That is what Islam does.
Yes, obviously, obeying the commands of God must take priority over obeying the dictates of secular governments. But, the lesson of Romans 13 is that Christians are to obey secular governments who “hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong” (Romans 12:3).
On December 31, 2017 at 12:39 pm, Muzzle Blast said:
Civil disobedience is the only route left for those who don’t ask for permission to exercise their inalienable right to cannabis in conjunction with their inalienable right to arms.
On December 31, 2017 at 1:15 pm, Jay said:
Backwoods you are 100% correct. When Peter is told not to preach the word, he responds we will listen to God not men.
EVERYONE SHOULD OBTAIN A COPY OF FRANCIS SCHAEFFERS BOOK CHRISTIAN MANIFESTO. IT CLARIFIES ROMANS 13 AND THE CHRISTIANS RESPONSIBILITIES TO GOVERNMENT.
On December 31, 2017 at 3:24 pm, Garry F. Owen, Trooper said:
God’s permissive will allows for the wicked to rule, and yet, His sovereign will is still accomplished, such as the case of the enslavement of the children of Jacob in Egypt. Proverbs states that “the heart of the king is as water in the hands of the LORD, HE makes it turn wherever HE wishes.”
As far as civil disobedience is concerned, our culture has accepted that such disobedience must have no consequences. This is nonsense. Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, Bonhoeffer, Gandhi and King all understood and counted the cost of civil disobedience. The time is coming and is now here when those who count themselves as followers of Christ will have to be civilly disobedient. I foresee a time in the not too distant future, when godly pastors will be forced to conduct godly weddings in secret to the disobedience of the State.
What price are we willing to pay to exercise the right to bear arms? I cannot say, but perhaps voting with our feet to a more conducive state may be in order. Perhaps, petitioning the state for a redress of grievances may be possible.
On December 31, 2017 at 5:14 pm, Paraclete said:
I encourage the readers here to listen to Pastor John Weaver’s
topical, “The Christian and Civil Government” located at sermonaudio.com
Pastor Weaver provides an in depth look at “who” and “why” and “when”
one should be in compliance to any authority….those who do give ear to
these messages will be soundly rewarded with what they learn…
Others, who continue to ignore facts, and parrot poor scriptural study,
will be observed as such.
On December 31, 2017 at 5:26 pm, Herschel Smith said:
@Paraclete,
Who are you charging with “poor scriptural study?”
On December 31, 2017 at 7:24 pm, Paraclete said:
Those who would believe that chapter 13 of Romans says that one is to obey the government, “regardless”…just obey and be a good slave.
On December 31, 2017 at 7:54 pm, Cold War Corpsman said:
I will continue to participate in society to the extent that my moral conscience allows (as I believe Paul is instructing us to do), and I will err on the side of GOD’s Law when man’s law is contradictory (as did Paul). If some demonically influenced individual walks into the hospital I work in and starts to shoot the place up, and I end his rampage with a well placed shot from my deeply concealed firearm, I will lose my job and possibly face criminal penalties; but I have no concern as to how it will reflect on me when I stand before Jesus on Judgement Day. I discern scripture for myself. I don’t rely on others interpretations as respected and “educated” as they may be. And I don’t rely on others to decide when or how I will defend myself, my family or innocents – as bureaucratic and authoritarian as they may be.
On December 31, 2017 at 8:16 pm, Doc Raydio said:
@Paraclete
Yes – you finally got something right!
Colossians 3:22
“Servants, obey your masters”
1 Peter 2:14-17
“13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
17 Honor all. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.”
On December 31, 2017 at 8:52 pm, Pat Hines said:
King James Bible
Psalm Psalm 144:1
“Blessed be the LORD, my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight”.
On December 31, 2017 at 8:56 pm, Pat Hines said:
By the way, “Paraclete”, I know John Weaver very well, he’s a member of the League of the South, and has preached many times at our Conferences.
Be careful what you post about him.
On December 31, 2017 at 8:59 pm, Paul Bonneau said:
There was a discussion about Romans 13 on the Free State Wyoming forum (including comments by Boston T. Party). However I believe you have to be a member to view it.
http://www.fswforum.org/index.php?topic=5929.msg98679#msg98679
On December 31, 2017 at 10:34 pm, James said:
Acts 23:2
On December 31, 2017 at 11:55 pm, Asgardi said:
Rolling with Abrahamist thought is where you fall down. You want ants? Cause that’s how you get ants.
On January 1, 2018 at 12:10 am, Herschel Smith said:
@Asgardi,
Herschel smiles in amusement. Alvin Plantinga called to say hello. He chuckled a bit when I inquired whether he wanted to debate “Epistemic Warrant” with some dude named Asgardi.
I do, after all, write a blog for the amusement of the comments.
On January 1, 2018 at 9:34 am, Ron W said:
“…the powers that be are ORDAINED of God” –Romans 13:1
“We the People of the United States….to secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ORDAIN and establish this Constitution for the United States of America”–Preamble to the Constitution
Stand fast therefore in the Liberty with which Christ has made us free and do not become entangled again in the yoke of bondage. –Galatians 5:1
Our Constitution is ORDAINED upon the principles that are enunciated in the Declaration of Independence whereby God is the Author of Life and Liberty and that these rights are the inalienable rights of the People. A Godly government ORDAINED of God must therefore operate in submission to God and the People. When it disobeys that ORDAINATION, it is the right and duty of the People under God to resist, correct and if possible and necessary remove and replace it. “Ministers of such a government are criminals and tyrants.
“Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God.”
On January 1, 2018 at 10:11 am, Paraclete said:
On December 31, 2017 at 8:16 pm, Doc Raydio said:
@Paraclete
Yes – you finally got something right!
Colossians 3:22
“Servants, obey your masters”
First off, our government is designed to work “only when” Godly Men
and Women are in “true” elected office…
Those who would normally be obligated to these “leaders” are freed
from any obligations of adherence once said “leaders” overstep their
spheres of authority…
Once again, if one was to listen to Pastor Weaver’s message at
sermonaudio.com on his topical:
“The Christian and Civil Government” they would know this…and more.
I too am a member of the S.C.V. and have read, and listened to Pastor Weaver over 25 years…As an eighth generation American, with both
sides of my family being Southern, by the grace of God, I will defend my
Republic from all that which seeks to destroy it…ungodly men and women have no place in positions of authority and should be removed, by the people.
On January 1, 2018 at 11:58 am, Fred said:
The context is; the rapid spread of The Way not property taxes or gun laws. Ugh!
We are to submit to civil government? What? So, we are all to help march somebody (else) off to the reeducation camps and starve half the population with farm collectivization because civil government said so? Are we to help nail our brothers to a cross because our state governor said so? This is the stupidest, most ignorant, ungodly interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. There are no verses that contradict another. NOWHERE does the Holy Bible say to submit to the unjust, unlawful, or evil, be that evil government or otherwise. What a colossally idiotic interpretation.
Now, if you are ordained of God (not a school of men), and will cease not to preach the word of God in the streets until you get arrested and further persecuted, that man is not to resist but continue in the word by preaching to the police, the court, and all the way up to Caesar’s court and if you are crucified for doing this in your faith, then submit because it is the will of the LORD (if it is the will of our LORD) and NOT because some assclown bureaucrat said to submit.
Context matters.
Submit to civil government? Ridiculous!
Submit to our Savior? How can I help such a holy man of God, who would cease not even unto his death, in street preaching?
And now, you understand what is meant in the New Testament. Let another man take your arms? Balderdash!
On January 1, 2018 at 1:59 pm, T S Adams said:
Calvin is the man. Good thinking on .Gov and good theology by Herschel.
Just as an aside to the guy going on about dope. Any mind altering drug
for recreation or religious purposes has its origins in sorcery which is forbidden by God. The original Greek for sorcery is pharmakia or pharmakeia and translated into English Pharmacy meaning drugs.
It might be legal in the land of fruits and nuts but not in heaven.
On January 1, 2018 at 2:24 pm, T S Adams said:
Just a little more. When Gods law and secular government law clash we are to disobey secular government and suffer the consequences peacefully in isolated incidence and rare occasions. Until it becomes obvious the secular government is in all-out rebellion against God such as our gov is today. Then a decision must be made fully understanding the consequences in either direction. And to what extent you are willing to go in your decisions actions without regard for your life. The Gulag of the mind or Concord, Lexington, Tianamin Square’s tank man.
“Just War” against your Government has certain criteria that must be met for God’s approval and assistance. Without that criteria being met your war is war against God and doomed.
There are several books on “Just War” probably on Amazon. They should be studied.
Last thought: If your not mentally and emotionally prepared to stand alone and die for your beliefs then your not a serious threat to anybody.