Antifa Reality Check: This Is A Problem Of RUF/ROE
BY Herschel Smith
4 years, 2 months ago
Via WRSA, this piece from NC Scout is must read.
“Me and three of my buddies were in Portland this weekend, got attacked by Antifa. There’s a Twitter video with millions of views on it. They ended up on Hannity and Tucker Carlson, Ben Shapiro etc., of us getting beaten with bats and rocks the size of cantaloupes thrown at us, getting spit on etc. We were all carrying pistols as well. Opportunity, ability and jeopardy, we were in a deadly force situation and we could easily articulate the use of deadly force, but they had pepper sprayed us. They were using industrial strobe lights on us, etc. We couldn’t PID our target and what lied beyond it, They did a great job of taking our situational awareness away, it was fucking incredible.
Bro my perspective on this changed so much.
The reason we were there wasn’t to counter protest or some shit, **** and *****, two of the guys with me, one of which is a bronze star and Purple Heart recipient. They’re both in the hiring process for the Portland Police Department. One is from Ohio and one is from Virginia. They both flew in that day just so they could come check out the city before they move their families across the nation.
[ … ]
But in all the training that I’ve been through my life, I’ve never been in one where in the first five seconds of the scenario you’re blinded with a strobe light and sprayed with pepper spray…. That changes everything. They were throwing these rocks from 15 feet back in the crowd, you couldn’t see who the fuck through it, etc. things like that…. It’s just a good talking point for guys that carry concealed, but you need to think through all these different scenarios.
It got way worse after that video ended, they chased us for 11 city blocks. They had a convoy of about 25 vehicles that cut us off at the next intersection, They had scouts on the corner with radios, they had a drone following us, they had a bull horn calling us Nazis, and the crowd was following a red strobe light that was up in the air on a stick, so they would announce Nazis and then people would follow the red strobe light, That video is just the beginning, I’ve got a fucking fractured hand from a baton, everyone of us has black and blue bruises up and down their legs and back, I had a guy spit in my face from 6 inches away, call me a pussy and a coward for not doing anything about it, and then tell me that he was going to find where I live, rape my mother, rape my children in front of me and then kill me.
[ … ]
Bottom line: don’t go to an Antifa protest where you can put yourself in that situation. And if you find yourself in that situation, expect them to employ tactics that take away your situational awareness, and complicate the use of force continuum.”
As I’ve said before, Antifa/BLM is highly trained and experienced with their tactics, techniques and procedures (TTPs). The patriots are simply going to have to do better than this. Furthermore, there is some thinking and hard decision-making that needs to occur before too much longer down this road.
Many former military have been trained in this sort of difficult tactical situation. My son, a former Marine, trained his “boots” this way because that’s the way he was trained. Getting gassed was a routine occurrence, and he trained his “boots” in shooting skills not by letting them sit in safety, security, comfort and peace on sunny, breezy days at the range, but by hazing them and striking them with the butt of his rifle for every errant shot. I asked him, “How did that work out?” He responded, “Every one of the boots under my charge scored expert rifleman. Every … single … one. You’d be surprised what a good motivator pain and stress is and how well it prepares you for combat.”
Many of us are not former Marines. In fact, most of us are not prepared for what lies ahead if Antifa/BLM bring their party to the suburbs and begin to burn businesses and homes. They think it’s justified, the police won’t stop it, and so there is no deterrent or reason for them to cease and desist this behavior.
Professor Reynolds says this concerning the street riots. “BLOCKING STREETS IS DANGEROUS, AND STEALS HOURS FROM OTHER PEOPLE’S LIVES WITHOUT COMPENSATION.” (Reynolds also says “Molon Labe” when it comes to giving up his home, a threat one wonders if he would carry through on given his knowledge of the difficult legal circumstances surrounding defense of property with lethal force?).
I submit that this doesn’t even come close to the problems the rioting entails, not even nearly. For some, there is no just compensation. A baby gets born in a vehicle with the cord around her neck, without medical care, and perishes. An ambulance isn’t able to get to the hospital and a heart attack victim dies. On a lesser scale, a father has promised his child that he will be there for his child’s last concert, or school presentation, and cannot make it because of a road riot. You can fill in the details of thousands more hypothetical instances, but in any case, generations of hate develops. This hatred doesn’t go away with an election.
Concerning businesses, a BLM march was recently had in Boiling Spring, S.C., in which owners of businesses stood outside their places of business with rifles, ready to defend their property. Few saw the problem, but I did. This mirrors so many other such instances of this sort of thing it’s impossible to count.
But what would these owners do in the event of looting, burning, and destruction of private property? Businesses that perhaps took generations to build, burned down in an instant because of road riots. What if these riots transition to neighborhoods? What is a father to do if he sees his home being torched? It’s more complicated than simply file it with insurance. Insurance cannot possibly ameliorate the destruction of family and school life such destruction would entail.
There are two states in America where one can legitimately defend property with deadly force, Texas and Missouri. And in Missouri, because of Soros-backed protecutors, the McCloskeys cannot even go into their own yard carrying guns without being dragged into court. So regardless of how the law reads, a prosecutor can change everything.
The labyrinth laws of self defense in America and the dice throw of prosecutorial discretion have made it to where the typical American can do nothing to stop this destruction to even their own private property. Antifa/BLM knows this, and has leveraged these laws in their favor.
American laws concerning self defense and defense of private property were written for men and women who no longer exist. They are an artifact of a simpler time, a time when men believed in the difference between right and wrong, and usually acted in a manner worthy of being called men. As John Adams remarked, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the governance of any other.”
My son executed warfare under what I consider an immoral set of RUF/ROE (immoral to him and his unit, that is). Regardless, he still managed to do his job, and do it well. But even his RUF/ROE wouldn’t have allowed road riots and the destruction of private property.
The incident cited above in Portland is really only a problem because of rules for the use of force and rules of engagement. The problem isn’t that Antifa/BLM are enemy forces (they are), but that prosecutors are enemy forces as well in such instances, and the police, who won’t act to stop the acts of violence because they are beholden to the politicians, will follow their orders to the letter and arrest you if a prosecutor says to do it because you defended your property with lethal force.
You see, this is all a problem of RUF/ROE. It was for these guys in Portland, and it will be for you if you attempt to defend your property.
Unless people decide to change them. And that’s what I expect to occur in the future. Open confrontations in the roadway will cease after the arrest of Kyle Rittenhouse and others, and men standing outside of their businesses with ARs will be replaced by men hiding under Ghillie suits, around the corner, and using stand-off tactics and weapons from 400, 500, or 600 yards away, or even further.
This article is posed merely for analysis purposes and as a thought-experiment. It outlines not what I recommend, nor what I wish to see occur, but what I strongly suspect will occur.
Good men, home owners, fathers who want to protect their families, and business owners, are progressively being backed into a corner. I suspect they will not allow themselves to be put into a position of no escape from that corner. At that point, the Antifa/BLM project becomes very dangerous for everyone involved.
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On September 6, 2020 at 10:47 pm, Name (required) said:
“… prosecutors are enemy forces as well in such instances, and the police, who won’t act to stop the acts of violence because they are beholden to the politicians, will follow their orders to the letter and arrest you if a prosecutor says to do it …”
The police are also enemy forces. These are the same police who have been enforcing unconstitutional gun laws, so no surprise there.
On September 7, 2020 at 12:53 am, Jimmy the Saint said:
“The labyrinth laws of self defense in America and the dice throw of prosecutorial discretion have made it to where the typical American can do nothing to stop this destruction to even their own private property.”
If it comes to widespread violence, there’s a pretty good chance that prosecutors who pick the wrong side vis a vis their communities will become recipients of the prestigious “Giovanni Falcone/Paolo Borsellino Memorial Award for Excellence in Jurisprudence” (or the “Joseph Force Crater Award, Presented in Absentia”) which will closely parallel the media’s “Jake Lingle Memorial Award for Journalistic Excellence”. Lots of folks, good and bad, will get reminded – in the most personal of ways – that they are touchable.
On September 7, 2020 at 2:25 am, Hudson H Luce said:
The right to defend one’s life, liberty, and property pre-exists any constitution or government. It’s to defend life, liberty, and property that governments are created.
“We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable, that all men are created equal and independent; that from that equal creation they derive in rights inherent and inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, and liberty and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these ends, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government shall become destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing it’s powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.”
And there you have it – a government which destroys your rights to preserve your life, liberty, and property forfeits any legitimacy it once had, it has the same legitimacy as the criminals it acts in concert with, and it is the right – and the duty – of the people to alter or abolish it, and to create a new government which will protect those rights. Those words are still true today as they were in 1776.
On September 7, 2020 at 4:10 am, Duke Norfolk said:
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the governance of any other.”
A lot of people throw that quote around, but haven’t really internalized the implications of it (and I’m not referring to you here, Herschel).
I say that because most of those same people will turn right around and talk about “muh Constitution”, and sperg on about not violating our principles, etc. Not understanding that the ground under us has changed. We aren’t that America anymore.
And in order for “the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government” (to piggyback on Hudson’s great comment), we can’t operate under the Constitution, because government sure the hell isn’t anymore, and God knows our enemy isn’t interested in it, other than as a device to handcuff us.
It’s a messy world that’s going to get a whole lot messier before it’s over.
On September 7, 2020 at 6:37 am, Nosmo said:
“After the first one the rest are free” Henry Bowman, via John Ross
“To the victor belong the spoils.” U.S. Senator William L. Marcy
“The winner gets to write the history.” Unknown
If – and I really, really hope it doesn’t – things go “kinetic” in a large way there will be no point in restraint of any kind. As in “kill them all and to Hell with sorting it out.”
It’s been said that when blacks riot cities are destroyed; when whites riot continents are destroyed. Enough “kinetics” and there won’t be a Constitutional Republic worthy of the naame to be restored.
We have, through our sloth and inaction, allowed the degradation of the structures upon which our society, with its unalienable freedoms and liberties, is based. Five decades ago when the Left began marching into schools and corrupting education and driving out basic christian and societal values parents could have risen up and said “no;” we decided it wasn’t a big deal, our daily tasks were more important. When politicians began creating and funding worthless programs, many of which provide money directly to Leftist programs and activities, voters decided other things were more deserving of our attention and time. When government, at all levels, grew in size to the point of metastasis we accepted it because we might receive some benefits from it.
Now our society is in self-destruct mode and we don’t understand how, or why, it happened.
At some point things will go “kinetic” because, as often radical surgery is the only option for metastasizing cancer, gentle methods of societal correction will not suffice. And, as radical surgery often fails to fully excise an advanced cancer because it has metastasized, kinetics may not correct the societal problems.
“We have met the enemy and he is us” Pogo, via Walt Kelly
On September 7, 2020 at 7:03 am, Bob in NC said:
Herschel – another great analysis.
I wince when I hear conservatives and patriots talk about how the coming conflict with Antifa/BLM will be a turkey shoot over in 20 minutes. Antifa is more well-funded, organized, and equipped than most civilians are except for ex-military. Lasers, frozen water bottles, bricks, fireworks, strobe lights, superior networking and tactics are making monkeys out of LEOs and terrorizing entire cities.
Also, something not usually acknowledged, and what I have witnessed first-hand – Antifa has the support of many of our liberal/leftist neighbors; they won’t be in the streets with them of course, but they will provide intel on which houses to hit, possibly shelter for the rioters during the attack (which makes them fair targets by the way), and they will also dox conservatives to law enforcement, fabricating “threats to “public safety.” We need to realize that sympathy among “non-combatant” liberals for Antifa is more widespread than we think and plan accordingly… for example, I read a post today that claimed Antifa is successfully crowdfunding to buy body armor and equipment. It’s not linked here because I couldn’t verify it, but I don’t doubt it.
@ Duke -you are spot on. Most people under the age of around 40 can’t even spell “constitution” never mind having read it or understand it.
I leave this thread with 3 relevant quotes to consider:
“Good government generally begins in the family, and if the once moral character of a people degenerates; their political character must soon follow.” ― Elias Boudinot
“A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” — John Stuart Mill, 1862
“Live free or die; death is not the worst of evils.” — General George Stark.
On September 7, 2020 at 7:25 am, ragman said:
And our “Law and Order” administration fiddles while Rome burns. At this time, one can only conclude that no one in govt, DOJ, local govts and police is there for us. They exist solely to increase their power and bank accounts.
On September 7, 2020 at 8:12 am, James said:
“And steals hours from peoples lives”.
While true,worse is that it steals childrens lives like the 14 year old boy shot and killed near the chad zone and the 6 year old girl killed in Atlanta as the driver of car she was in took a wrong turn.
The blm/antifi folks are insane to a very large degree and thus before totally cornered feel many will say the hell with the laws.
On a side note,no mention from those insane people about the two children killed,and though it makes no difference to me as I just see them as children as they were also black still no mention of their deaths from these folks,guess young black childrens lives do not matter to them.
On September 7, 2020 at 8:42 am, George 1 said:
Many patriots don’t understand that we are the dissidents now. A major change in thinking must occur. As Herschel points out, the tactics must change to address that reality. In my neighborhood house after house has the “Back the Blue” signs in the yard. In passing when I get the chance, I ask some of them if they are going to “back the blue” when the blue won’t protect their property from rioters? Will you back the blue when they arrest you for defending yourself? How about when they come to take your guns away?
Most tell me that “that will not happen here.” I then ask them if they know about the crazy communist Mayor of Boise. Do they know about her “friend” and “colleague” the Boise Chief of Police? Many of these people are of my generation and they live in the 80s.
On September 7, 2020 at 9:34 am, Longbow said:
One really doesn’t need four, five or six hundred yards of stand-off. A suppressed .22LR will do the job quite nicely at 75-150 yards. Simply identify the ring leaders and reduce them. Col Jeff Cooper advised this very thing for riot control over thirty years ago. I concur.
On September 7, 2020 at 9:43 am, DWEEZIL THE WEASEL said:
These events reported in Portlandia, vis-a-vis the three “Operators” who were neutralized, chased down, and almost murdered by the ANTIFA forces should be a huge wake-up call to all here. These Reds are well-organized, well-funded, and well-trained. Your prepping efforts should be focused on developing all the intelligence you can on your enemies in your own back yard and how to defend against them.
And, as far as what George 1 posted, PAY ATTENTION! The Orcs and Orcettes with badges are NOT your friends. They serve their paymasters and their chiefs serve at the pleasure of the corrupt, self-serving Mayors and City Councils. Sheriffs, being elected officials, are sometimes more aware of the BOR and the needs of their constituency. But, not always. Look at that buffoon who was in charge of the Lakeland, FL High School shooting fiasco. Just over the state line from me and my tribe, the Spokane County Sheriff is a total throw-away who took Obama’s hand-me-down MRAPS and other military hardware to: “…defend against Tea Party Terrorists”. Stay quiet. Pick your battles and targets. Plan accordingly. We are the Lakota Sioux and Cheyenne, now. Wounded Knee II is just around to corner. Bleib ubrig.
On September 7, 2020 at 9:45 am, Bill Buppert said:
The day of the .22 revolver is upon us as an additional required carry item…
On September 7, 2020 at 10:16 am, Larry said:
War is a fluid event, a constant shifting of dynamics where enemies one day, are allies the next. You may back the blue until the blue comes for you. You may support BLM and march in the streets, and support rioting for a better tomorrow, until its turned on you.
The one constant static line in all of this is, once it becomes personal, Most people will turn to self preservation and shelve the cause. Cops will arrest or pass up whoever the people signing their paychecks tell them too. However Once his shift is over and the cop goes home to his family, he falls into lockstep with everyone else. Once the rioter is done for the night, he also goes home and falls into lockstep with everyone else. Driving his properly licensed car, obeying traffic laws, making appointments, paying his bills.
The static line of civility is going to be the next point of focus.. When the rioters personal Life is negatively affected by his actions he will likely cease to riot..This is where it gets dirty. The masses only need to be pushed to that point where the public turns a blind eye to the act of Justice that is doled out by those who are willing to do what the law and elected leaders refuse to do….Leaders in law enforcement wont be able to build a case against a person if the fed up public refuses to cooperate.. ‘Didnt see or hear anything’ will become common. finding young adults with skateboards, umbrellas and helmets in dumpsters and ditches will be a message that wont go unnoticed by their fellow cohorts.. The message will be, you can riot and destroy,Police and elected leaders may let you but once you are identified, you wont be safe from the public. Intel on the bad actors, the leaders will be leaked out by law enforcement individuals who are sympathetic to the public, and once a rioter is arrested and released to riot again, his personal safety will be in jeopardy.
On September 7, 2020 at 10:18 am, xtphreak said:
@Bill Bullet
Pray elucidate as to your meaning, good sir.
On September 7, 2020 at 11:17 am, The Dark Lord said:
Supply lines, supply lines, supply lines … Wars can be won by killing the tip of the spear OR by choking off the tip by breaking the supply shaft (then kill the tip) …
On September 7, 2020 at 11:21 am, Ohio John said:
We are worried about legal self defense while the terrorist are attacking in mass. We will never fix this through the legal system or through government. The whole system is stacked against the good guys. We are in a war and the only law in war is don’t lose. It’s way past time to start fucking up the people that are running this shit. If a crowd wants to attack me I’m going to cut them all down to the best of my ability. I’ll deal the the legal mess if I survive it.
How many people does it take attacking you before you consider it a lethal threat? Defend yourselves. One luck hit and your out and very possibly dead.
On September 7, 2020 at 11:31 am, Retired said:
I keep reading articles delivered through WRSA that express timidity in dealing with the enemy, so let me give my gut level response to how I would react:
You try to stop my vehicle on the road (Antifa) and I will run you over.
You come down my street carrying weapons and incendiaries, I will shoot you.
If or when an arrest warrant is issued and upon execution of the warrant, I will flee well armed and not be taken alive.
Some things gnaw at a man worse than dying.
On September 7, 2020 at 11:34 am, Observer said:
“prosecutors are enemy forces as well in such instances”
“men standing outside of their businesses with ARs will be replaced by men – using stand-off tactics and weapons from 400, 500, or 600 yards away, or even further.”
I also expect to see assassinations of some of the riot-supporting prosecuting and district and state attorneys.
On September 7, 2020 at 11:35 am, Dirk said:
150 yards isa difficult .22 shot under normal times, I shoot sqweeks, “little squirrels” on the local ranches, by the thousands, yearly. Use old military training .22’s standard rifle sized. ” I do use a high end scope”.
The parallel, is shot placement,,,, if the goal is a center mass hit, I agree. A Sqweek is maybe three inchs tall by 1 inch maybe 1.5 wide. Accuracy is everything, Kentucky windage is a learned skill.
I’ve become a HUGE fan of the .22 mag, and the .17hmr. Both rim fire, and deadly accurate out to 200Y.
We’ve settled on the tel tec pistols and carbines, have had great success, both utilize a interchangeable 30 round mag. Some of the earlier units had mag/ feed problems, we’ve not experienced this issue to date.
30 rounds of .22 mag is a motherfucker to cheat. My wife now carries both a pistol and a carbine plus 10 extra 30 round mags, in her POV. Might weigh 6 pounds total weight.
The carbine sports junky ol Magpul sights, for now, a flashlight and a red dot.the carbine with the stock collapsed is I’m guessing 20/24 inchs OAL.
With a thunderbeast can threaded on, the reduced sound signature is impressive.
I have Ruger .22 pistols, with cans, their a reasonable 40 yard shooter. If running sub sonic Agular ammo, the ranges very. Often have to hand cycle the slide. Ain’t no thing deal with the problem, don’t fret over it.
Lastly spent two nights in Portland past few weeks, my camo was a nasty nasty wool blanket I took out of my friends dog kennel, been their for years. It stunk really bad, olive oil dirt and two left tennis shoes and changed my gait.
Stayed in homeless turf, no one even looked twice at me.
Your meat eaters took an ass wooping cuz “arrogance” their tough guy routine, is exactly what was keyed on.
One of my observation was simply this. street folk were disguarded, not even looked at, walked where they wanted, bedded down as they pleased. Summer in the bushes, winter over steam vents.
Portland is a rain forest heavy heavy bushed and trees. The homeless have bamboo highways thru the brush, going virtually anywhere you want to go.
These folk may not thrive, but they survive well!.
My point is use the tools of the turf.
On September 7, 2020 at 12:05 pm, Swrichmond said:
Regarding the NC Scout piece: I am not able to understand why the authors of that piece thought it advisable to engage Antifa on their turf and on their terms. That makes no sense at all. The only possible reasons are 1) recon or 2) arrogance.
Blocked from commenting there, I drop the comment here, since you reference it as significant.
On September 7, 2020 at 12:16 pm, Sanders said:
While one side is highly organized and is rioting, assaulting, and murdering at will, we have the other side still arguing the finer points of the law, and whether they should or shouldn’t and how much so should the should be in order for it to not be over the top.
Like herding cats. Many will still be arguing those finer points of law as they climb into the boxcars…
On September 7, 2020 at 12:47 pm, Bill Buppert said:
@xtphreak,
Th is Herschel’s house and this is not a free country. He and I are both writers who know the rules. Every responsible backpacker and through-hiker know to have no trace or refuse behind.
Cordially,
Bill Buppert
On September 7, 2020 at 12:49 pm, Ralph said:
Compliance is dangerous – consider the case of the Carpenter family in Merced. They complied with California’s “safe storage” (HAH!) law, leaving the oldest in charge of her younger siblings. When a monster broke into their house, disabling the phone line, the oldest couldn’t access the .357 in the house – it was locked in a safe. She knew how to use it, all the kids did. So she escaped through a window and ran next door to a neighbor, begging for him to intervene with his rifle. He refused, worried over HIS right to own a firearm, and handed her a phone instead. By the time the police arrived and shot him dead, he had killed two of the children with a potato spade – one of them, the youngest, while he was asleep in bed.
Nope, nope, nopity nope – don’t be so conditioned to comply that you lose sight of doing what’s right. That’s badthink. When the situation demands, do what’s right.
On September 7, 2020 at 1:18 pm, Capitalist Eric said:
So I’ll ask the obvious question:
When local politicians (like District Attorneys) side with overt terrorists like BLM/Pantifa, do they not become legitimate targets themselves?
I suspect that the unplanned “retirement” of a few of these corrupt scumbags- whether mayors or DAs- will get the idea across to the rest.
Just sayin….p
On September 7, 2020 at 1:37 pm, Unknownsailor said:
Mike Vanderboegh had it pegged when he talked about local accountability lists. If your local DA is a Soros funded Marxist, you should know that. If you don’t know that, find out.
Is your county DNC office still open? If they are, you should know that, where they are, and who the chair is. I found out my county DNC office is closed last week due to COVID-19.
Sun Tzu warned about knowing your enemies, and knowing yourselves. Many on the right do not know their enemies, and that can and will get you killed.
On September 7, 2020 at 1:53 pm, Bad_Brad said:
What concerns me the most, and whats prevented putting an end to these clowns a long time ago, is LE’s constant protection of the clowns and persecution of the intended victims. ANTIFABLM has some bad habits that are easily exploitable. If I hear one more person say “Don’t underestimate your enemy” I’m going to extrude twinkies. There’s such a thing as over estimating your enemy too.
In order for ANTIFABLM to accomplish their task masters goal, they will need to change tactics. Voter suppression through intimidation looks like the logical nest step. Which means they’re coming to your conservative communities. LE’s gonna need to decide whether they’re part of the problem or part of the solution at that time because there will be a lot of civilian causalities.
On September 7, 2020 at 2:00 pm, TheOtherGeorge said:
“As I’ve said before, Antifa/BLM is highly trained and experienced with their tactics, techniques and procedures (TTPs). ”
– Which begs the question; where is the training taking place, who is providing it, and who is funding it?
On September 7, 2020 at 2:02 pm, James Sullivan said:
Please add Arizona to your list of states where deadly force in defense of property is legal.
https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00411.htm
On September 7, 2020 at 3:09 pm, Richard Roma said:
If the government wanted to stop these mobs, they could do it in a week. They are funded, directed and tolerated by elements of our own government and large corporations, pushing the exact same agenda as the elites – this is state sanctioned terror.
Understand that when you fight this group, you are actually fighting the government. Doesn’t matter that the government got a bunch of stoners, sexual deviants and middle aged men on skateboards to do their bidding. Easy to kill in combat? Of course, that’s the point. The deep state government wants some “Patriots” to gun down a bunch of these failures so they can justify mass arrests, gun confiscation, more consolidation of imperial power. Don’t play into their hands.
On September 7, 2020 at 3:36 pm, Vxxc said:
We have a treason problem on the Left, and a utter lack or of organization and will on the Right. As for the Laws: we can survive or remain in compliance with the Laws, we cannot do both.
On September 7, 2020 at 3:51 pm, Larry said:
As for the .22, I find the Colibri round is perfect for inside city limits dispatching of pests. Distance and shot placement is key to a successful kill. at around 590 fps, it has served me well, less noise than an air gun.. Must only be shot out of a handgun.
On September 7, 2020 at 4:42 pm, tballard said:
The problem with a .22 is that it is likely going to be ineffective on someone who is drugged up on opioids or meth, like a number of the Antifa foot soldiers are during the riots. My wife was just showing me a video yesterday of a drugged up crazy with a knife charging a cop who unloaded multiple (probably 9mm) rounds into him and it did not even slow him down, not even a little. He still had enough energy to attack the cop and get another nearby cop before the first cop basically unloaded his entire mag into him. Sorry – I do not have the link to the video, but the point is clear, if two rounds to center of mass do not stop him, a headshot is likely required and a .22 is not going to get the job done in that circumstance. A .22 certainly has its place, but I would not want to rely on one to protect me if I was being attacked. As a harassment weapon, a take-down 10-22 that could easily be hidden might be effective, though.
On September 7, 2020 at 4:51 pm, Bad_Brad said:
It takes a 150 foot pounds of energy to kill the average human. That’s a 22 long rifle. Anything under that is suspect.
On September 7, 2020 at 6:10 pm, Ned2 said:
@Herschel
There are many more states that permit neutralizing a threat outside of the home. Whether that extends to your vehicle or business is a state by state thing. Check your local laws!
In the grand scheme of things, however, if you feel your home, business, neighbors or anything else is in immediate danger, shoot the bastards. The laws can be interpreted in many ways. Find yourself a good 2A attorney and get to know them. Have surveillance on your house, person and vehicle; there are lots of inexpensive options out there and if you have documented evidence it helps.
I also know that placing shots on target from a distance will have a much more demoralizing effect on the communists, and also minimize your exposure to the video coverage that is so rampant in these events. If we can be ghosts we will accomplish so much more. Shoot, skedaddle and shut up. Put the fear into them and they will scatter like cockroaches.
On September 7, 2020 at 7:03 pm, Ned2 said:
A useful source of state by state info regarding firearm law:
https://handgunlaw.us/
Check regularly; laws sometimes change without legislative action. Reciprocity for instance.
On September 7, 2020 at 7:21 pm, Ned2 said:
Here in Wyoming for instance:
§ 6-1-204. Immunity from civil action for justifiable use of force; attorney fees.
(a) Except as provided by W.S. 6-1-103(a), a person who uses reasonable defensive force pursuant to W.S. 6-2-602 is immune from civil action for the use of the force.
(b) In a civil action filed against a person related to the person’s use of defensive force, the person may file a motion with the court asserting that the person used reasonable defensive force under W.S. 6-2-602. Upon the filing of the motion the court shall hold a hearing prior to trial and shall grant the person’s motion if he proves by a preponderance of the evidence that he used reasonable defensive force under W.S. 6-2-602.
(c) A court shall award reasonable attorney fees, court costs, compensation for any loss of income and all other expenses incurred by a person in defense of any civil action arising from the person’s use of reasonable defensive force pursuant to W.S. 6-2-602 if the court finds that the defendant is immune from civil action under subsection (a) of this section.
Defensive use of firearms is justifiable:
§ 6-2-602. Use of force in self defense; no duty to retreat.
(a) The use of defensive force whether actual or threatened, is reasonable when it is the defensive force that a reasonable person in like circumstances would judge necessary to prevent an injury or loss, and no more, including deadly force if necessary to prevent imminent death or serious bodily injury to the person employing the deadly force or to another person. As used in this subsection, “necessary to prevent” includes a necessity that arises from an honest belief that the danger exists whether the danger is real or apparent.
(b) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury to himself or another when using defensive force, including deadly force if:
(i) The intruder against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, another’s home or habitation or, if that intruder had removed or was attempting to remove another against his will from his home or habitation; and
(ii) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring.
(c) The presumption set forth in subsection (b) of this section does not apply if:
(i) The person against whom the defensive force is used has a right to be in or is a lawful resident of the home or habitation, such as an owner, lessee or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person;
(ii) The person sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(iii) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a peace officer or employee of the Wyoming department of corrections who enters or attempts to enter another’s home or habitation in the performance of his official duties.
(d) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter another’s home or habitation is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(e) A person who is attacked in any place where the person is lawfully present shall not have a duty to retreat before using reasonable defensive force pursuant to subsection (a) of this section provided that he is not the initial aggressor and is not engaged in illegal activity.
(f) A person who uses reasonable defensive force as defined by subsection (a) of this section shall not be criminally prosecuted for that use of reasonable defensive force.
(g) As used in this section:
(i) “Habitation” means any structure which is designed or adapted for overnight accommodation, including, but not limited to, buildings, modular units, trailers, campers and tents, but does not include the inmate housing area of a jail, state penal institution or other secure facility under contract with the department of corrections to house inmates;
(ii) “Home” means any occupied residential dwelling place other than the inmate housing area of a jail, state penal institution or other secure facility under contract with the department of corrections to house inmates;
(iii) “Deadly force” means force that is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury.
There seems to be no specific language regarding ones business, but I’m not a lawyer.
Sorry for the long winded quotes, but I’m presenting an example of where we stand legally.
Did I say I’m not a lawyer?
Of course, we have a God given right to protect our way of life, our families and friends, our homes and businesses, so the law actually doesn’t come into play if they don’t know who you are. Wink, wink.
On September 7, 2020 at 7:47 pm, DWEEZIL THE WEASEL said:
One thing I would like to add: When you load your cartridges into your magazines or the cylinders of your revolvers, wipe them down with a clean, dry cloth first. Then, wear cloth gloves. CSI, people. The lab rats solved a lot of my burglary cases back in the day, vis-a-vis latent fingerprints. For those of you who insist in going amongst the hostiles, keep in mind you will leave something behind at EVERY “crime scene”, if you are not very careful. Bleib ubrig.
On September 7, 2020 at 10:24 pm, Doug Worley said:
Something I’ve often wondered recently is similar to this – what do good men do when backed into corner. I had the same thoughts about stand off employment of accurate rifle fire, but also wondered if these activist DA’s, police chiefs, and local politicians will be targeted as well. I don’t think they realize the dangerous line they are skirting. I’m afraid someone is going to get wise and go over the heads of the street thugs. Perish the thought…
On September 8, 2020 at 9:16 am, Danny said:
Apparently SC has defense of property, see below;
Defense of Property “…in the protection of one’s dwelling, only such force must be used as is necessary,
or apparently necessary, to a reasonably prudent man. Any greater expenditure cannot be justifiable and is
therefore punishable. State v. Hibler, 79 S.C. 170, 60 S.E. 438 (1907).
“[t]he weight of modern authority limits deadly force in a defense of a dwelling to situations in which
the householder reasonably believes that the intruder intends to commit a felony or only when deadly force
would be authorized by the law of self-defense.” McAninch and Fairey.
On September 8, 2020 at 9:30 am, Herschel Smith said:
@Danny,
“Intruder.” That’s the operative word. Someone is throwing Molotov bottles at your house or running around your house shooting fireworks at it (which could start a fire).
That is dangerous, but doesn’t qualify as “intruder.” It qualifies as trespasser.
On September 8, 2020 at 9:42 am, Fred said:
In TN “a reasonable man fears for his life or the life of others.” is the threshold for use of deadly force. Arson of human use or dwelling structures meets that threshold. But, as always, don’t count on local DA’s especially in hive cities, and shockingly, all four the “metro cities” in TN are communist.
The Revolution knows where it can conduct ops and avoid prosecution, in case nobody noticed that.
On September 8, 2020 at 1:59 pm, LKS said:
Georgia is pretty permissive in defense of property.
And I’m not sure where this “150 ft-lbs to kill a man” comes from, but I would like to see the citation with supporting evidence for that stupid assertion. Quick experiment, lay down on the floor face up, place a sharpened pencil over your chest, point down. Have a friend drop a 5 lb weight from 1 foot up onto the end of said pencil. Have friend post results after his trial.
On September 8, 2020 at 4:27 pm, Hudson H Luce said:
If the law is used as a weapon against you by the government, in defense of someone who would invade your right to life, liberty, or property, then that government is your enemy as well. Do not seek justice in its courts, you won’t find any. Your only recourse is to alter or abolish that government, and create new government which will preserve your rights to life, liberty, and property. And it’s really just that simple.
On September 9, 2020 at 1:45 am, A. Landmesser said:
I remember being in I Corps and having snappers attempt to break through the wire. Flares and exploding Claymores didn’t help your night vision nor situational awareness. But the snappers had to deal with those claymores and everything ranging from 45s, shotguns and M-14s. We knew what to do.
If facing Antifa make them worry about their safety. A situation where the enemy controls the terms of engagement is all ready lost. Antifa will not expect violent response, witness Kenosha. It will be a long time before the buttercups try such attacks again. Make them respond to your actions.
On September 9, 2020 at 10:48 am, noel eliscu said:
when will the Government protect a majority /
On September 10, 2020 at 10:48 am, Capt. Reid said:
All very good information about yesterday and tomorrow’s history, guess things are ”close at hand”.
On September 13, 2020 at 10:47 pm, Larry Morse said:
Tactical Solution to the defined problem.
This incident would justify the use of Deadly Force in Illinois.
Good guys go back to back and begin firing from retention across they’re sector.
Three men, 120 degree sectors. High cap mags and extra mags are recommended.
Escape the situation as rioters disperse to avoid the incoming.
On September 14, 2020 at 11:35 am, MikeJ said:
I read here about how to resist and fight against the AF/BLM, and how the law has been turned on its head-it has. I also read about how the rule of law is dead in the former republic-it is.
So my question to the crowd is, how many of you wear the face diaper? Social distance? Actually believe that the CoronaDoom is a serious threat? I have to say that judging by the compliance in my AO with all of these infringements on liberty, that there will be NO pushback against anything that AF/BLM are doing from 99% of the public. Good luck finding many that have the mindset to engage in counter revolution. The entire CoronaDoom scam is a control/compliance exercise so that TPTB can gauge the level of resistance in the population at large. They have their answer. Those that won’t stand up now against mask orders etc., will certainly not stand up when challenged over their other rights.